Petersburg and related things.

[chapmaja]

The search for information on the DT&I, DT&M and D&LN has lead me to look into information regarding Petersburg, Mi.

I know the Lakeshore and Michigan Southern was the first railroad through Petersburg. This was the line that ran from Monroe west through Petersburg to Adrian.

The Toledo-Detroit Railroad was supposedly built in 1915 from near Temperance north to Petersburg and then to Dundee. This appears to have been the line which curves SW from where CleanTech now is located in Dundee, past Dundee Middle School and then went onward to Petersburg then SE to Toledo. The only mapped evidence I can find of this line extending anywhere is down to what is now M-50 in Dundee. No maps I've found show it extending to Petersburg.

I can find no maps which actually show this railroad however. The line appears to have existed as the DT&I's access point from Detroit to Toledo via Dundee from 1916 until 1931 under a lease, before the line was merged into the DT&I in 1931.

The line north of Petersburg appears to have been removed (if it existed), soon after the Malinta Cutoff was completed. Looking at Google Maps I can see a section of possible long removed ROW running North from Saline St, crossing the Raisin River then turning NE towards Dundee. This left the remaining tracks as a couple spurs from Petersburg Jct north into Petersburg which by 1931 had no businesses, but appears to have reamined in place until at least the early 1940's and the track from Petersburg southeast to Toledo which remained in use by the DT&I until trackage rights over the AA were granted in the 1960s from Diann to Toledo thus allowing the line from Petersburg Junction to the north end of Temperance Yard to be removed. What remains of Petersburg Junction

A related question is when did the DT&I/GTW/CN sell Temperance Yard to the Ann Arbor? When the GTW took control over the D&TSL and the DT&I, Temperance Yard would have become out of the way extra for the GTW, given their control over Lang Yard. With the connection from Lang to Ottawa Yard in place, there would have been no reason for the GTW to keep Temperance Yard.

[AARR]

GTW serviced three customers from Temperance including General Mills, General Motors and 84 Lumber. They sold it to AA in the late 1980's IIRC.

A related question is when did the DT&I/GTW/CN sell Temperance Yard to the Ann Arbor? When the GTW took control over the D&TSL and the DT&I, Temperance Yard would have become out of the way extra for the GTW, given their control over Lang Yard. With the connection from Lang to Ottawa Yard in place, there would have been no reason for the GTW to keep Temperance Yard.

[chapmaja]

GTW serviced three customers from Temperance including General Mills, General Motors and 84 Lumber. They sold it to AA in the late 1980's IIRC.

A related question is when did the DT&I/GTW/CN sell Temperance Yard to the Ann Arbor? When the GTW took control over the D&TSL and the DT&I, Temperance Yard would have become out of the way extra for the GTW, given their control over Lang Yard. With the connection from Lang to Ottawa Yard in place, there would have been no reason for the GTW to keep Temperance Yard.

It appears it was purchased for $450,000 from the GTW in 1988 by the Ann Arbor Railroad while the Ann Arbor was in the process of being brought out of bankruptcy protection. There were apparently several bidders and the Ann Arbor was the best bid of the group in terms of not only money but also other factors.

What I am still wondering about, and hopefully my post on the D&TSL Facebook group will get an answer, was did the GT actually have a local based in Temperance Yard, or were they servicing the 3 customers from Lang Yard and just running a local across the TT. I can't see any trains originating from Temperance Yard once the GT gained control of both the Shoreline and the DT&I.

[DaveO]

Meints documented it
from petersburg jct n along teal
then n 500' e of forrest and then along e side of elizabeth
slight nnw turn from ida
then n just west of cutoff river loop
then ne

[blueheron13]

This 1917 map shows the alignment between Petersburg and Dundee, but I wish it was more legible.

https://monroemichigan.wordpress.com/20 ... ousel-1922

[Manistique]

For what it is worth, I photographed a DT&I locomotive in Temperance Yard north of Toledo in the mid to late 1970's. And I recall thinking that at that time DT&I still had the branchline in service from the north but it now ended in Temperance Yard.

[AARR]

DT&I used to switch Temperance with a twice a day local from Flat Rock. They used their trackage rights on AA to access it.

For what it is worth, I photographed a DT&I locomotive in Temperance Yard north of Toledo in the mid to late 1970's. And I recall thinking that at that time DT&I still had the branchline in service from the north but it now ended in Temperance Yard.

[DaveO]

if you know how to use lidar, it's possible that some of the old grade would be revealed.
i tried and failed though.

[Michael]

Based on the 1917 map that Blueheron13 posted and looking at the old topo map contour lines along with the modern aerials, this is roughly where the line between Dundee and Petersburg was. It doesn't appears on any of the topo maps but this one is from 1939, presumably after the line was removed.

[MP73point4]

Here are a couple other resources mentioning the line through Petersburg.
The Ragweed Line - http://www.trainweb.org/annarbor/AARRHi ... -DT&I.html
Tracking the Toledo, Ann Arbor & Detroit RR by James Hannum - I downloaded a free copy of this book a while ago. This has a lot of information about the construction of lines in the Petersburg and Dundee areas. https://archive.org/details/tracking-th ... 5-mar-2023

[Michael]

You can see that a whole other line went from Durban to Deerfield. Evidence of that ROW is still visible on modern aerials.

[blueheron13]

Here are a couple other resources mentioning the line through Petersburg.
The Ragweed Line - http://www.trainweb.org/annarbor/AARRHi ... -DT&I.html
Tracking the Toledo, Ann Arbor & Detroit RR by James Hannum - I downloaded a free copy of this book a while ago. This has a lot of information about the construction of lines in the Petersburg and Dundee areas. https://archive.org/details/tracking-th ... 5-mar-2023

Thanks for the link to the James Hannum article. That's an outstanding reference.

[chapmaja]

You can see that a whole other line went from Durban to Deerfield. Evidence of that ROW is still visible on modern aerials.

Interesting thing to note (I have not read the additional resources yet), on the map it shows the line from Petersburg to Dundee running on the west side of Petersburg. Others have indicated it was on the east side of Petersburg.

If you look north of the intersection of Rairoad St and Saline St in Peterburg, where it crosses the river, it appears to be bridge abutments where a bridge crossed the river.

I will update this post if I find the answer.

[chapmaja]

I found an interesting answer and some interesting additional information looking through the resources.

The mainline, once completed did actually run from the east side of Petersburg to Dundee. The line on the west side of Dundee did run up into Petersburg, but the line was apparently never actually completed across the River Raisin in Petersburg. This line did go into Petersburg, but never cross the LS&MS line. Once completed, the line crossed the LS&MS on the east side of town.

One interesting note. North of Milan on the east side of Platt Rd, north of Stoney Creek, I have seen cement ditch edges which seems out of place. I have never figured out why until now. They were put in place when the ROW for the Toledo, Ann Arbor and Detroit was graded, but never completed. These over 100 year old concrete pieces have remained alongside Platt Rd ever since.

[Michael]

I missed this map before. This tells the whole history of the many lines in and near Dundee

[CAT345C]

I found an interesting answer and some interesting additional information looking through the resources.

The mainline, once completed did actually run from the east side of Petersburg to Dundee. The line on the west side of Dundee did run up into Petersburg, but the line was apparently never actually completed across the River Raisin in Petersburg. This line did go into Petersburg, but never cross the LS&MS line. Once completed, the line crossed the LS&MS on the east side of town.

One interesting note. North of Milan on the east side of Platt Rd, north of Stoney Creek, I have seen cement ditch edges which seems out of place. I have never figured out why until now. They were put in place when the ROW for the Toledo, Ann Arbor and Detroit was graded, but never completed. These over 100 year old concrete pieces have remained alongside Platt Rd ever since.

I wondered about those all the time when I worked for the A&B. I would pass those on my way down from South Lyon.

[chapmaja]

I missed this map before. This tells the whole history of the many lines in and near Dundee

This map brings up some interesting additional questions.

The branch from Lenawee Junction to Ida through Petersburg was in service up until the formation of Conrail. The map however lists the abandonment date as 1979, 3 years after the formation of Conrail.

In the Conrail System Plan, it says the Ida Farmers Co-op was attempting to negotiate with the Ann Arbor to put in a connection at Federman to access the trackage to Ida. With the southern portion of the Ann Arbor initially being included in Conrails service plan, the attempt to connect these branches never materialized and the line to Ida was no included in the Conrail plan. Was the three year delay in abandonment caused by continuted attempts to work out a deal with the State of Michigan for access to Ida? Was there ever an attempt by the State of Michigan to gain this line from Ida to Federman, or did the AA's bankruptcy end any future rail service for Ida?