Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

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Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by GP30M4216 »

I've got an old postcard in my collection depicting a steam locomotive approaching the photographer, about to pass a Banjo signal, labeled "All Clear on the PMRR at Holland, Mich." Did the PMRR actually use Banjo Signals before semaphores? My postcard is postmarked 1910.

Here's an archival copy of the same postcard in the Calvin College archive:
Image
You can zoom in really close at this source link: https://library.calvin.edu/omeka_old/files/show/1307

You can read more about Banjo signals and how they functioned at these two links. The Reading Railroad had some of the last in operation into the 1950s, but few have survived in preservation, even in museums.
http://position-light.blogspot.com/2015 ... ained.html
http://rrsignalpix.com/hall_disc_signals.php

There are a fair number of photos of semaphores on the old PM mainline, the searchlights which replaced the blades, and of course the modern Safetrans signals of the latest generation. I don't recall seeing any other images of banjo signals on the PM, but there's no question that's what's shown in the postcard image. I'd love to know any additional info, sources, or photos of these used elsewhere in Michigan.

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Re: Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by GRHC »

For the life of me I can’t figure out where this picture was taken. I’m not sure if it’s actually taken in Holland Michigan.

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Re: Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by DaveO »

It's not unusual for postcards back in the day to use the same image to represent other locations in addition to the actual location.

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Re: Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by jrgerber »

I tried to find photos of Banjos on the PM. However I did run into this 1928 article link below talking about signal replacement on the PM

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/ ... nal-system

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Re: Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by Standard Railfan »

jrgerber wrote:
Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:17 am
I tried to find photos of Banjos on the PM. However I did run into this 1928 article link below talking about signal replacement on the PM

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/ ... nal-system
Thank you for posting the link. Very interesting article.

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Re: Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by MQT1223 »

On a side note, did we have any other what could be called "unusual" signal installs around Michigan that aren't well known? I know we had some Tilting Target Signals here and there such as in Grand Rapids on the west side but did any Ball Signals make their way out here? I can understand many diamonds most likely being guarded by the most simplistic means since some were obscure branches with little traffic.
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Re: Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by GP30M4216 »

It's so funny how stuff like this happens...someone just posted a series of PM photos from the Grand Ledge Area District Library local history webpage and what do you know? A banjo signal in the mix!
Image_1650420536682.png
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1878555 ... 1589413785
Steve Horton's informative caption:
Hall disc (aka banjo) signal on west side of Grand Ledge. PM annual reports mention that it was installed in between July 1, 1906 and June 30, 1907 and was replaced with a semaphore between July 1, 1912 and June 30, 1913. Grand Ledge Historical Society collection.

This timeline jives perfectly with my original postcard which is postmarked 1910! Cool :D

As for where the Holland postcard image was taken, it's true that olde time postcard images were often mislabeled as other locations. I'm not sure that's the case here. The church on the left throws me off, but that could always be the artist' creative license. If I had to guess, I'd say this is a westbound just north of the depot

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Re: Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by GRHC »

GP30M4216 wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:15 pm
It's so funny how stuff like this happens...someone just posted a series of PM photos from the Grand Ledge Area District Library local history webpage and what do you know? A banjo signal in the mix!

Image_1650420536682.png
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1878555 ... 1589413785
Steve Horton's informative caption:
Hall disc (aka banjo) signal on west side of Grand Ledge. PM annual reports mention that it was installed in between July 1, 1906 and June 30, 1907 and was replaced with a semaphore between July 1, 1912 and June 30, 1913. Grand Ledge Historical Society collection.

This timeline jives perfectly with my original postcard which is postmarked 1910! Cool :D

As for where the Holland postcard image was taken, it's true that olde time postcard images were often mislabeled as other locations. I'm not sure that's the case here. The church on the left throws me off, but that could always be the artist' creative license. If I had to guess, I'd say this is a westbound just north of the depot
When I first looked at that pic I thought of all the places in Holland that has a curve and north of the Holland depot was one that stood out in my mind. The only problem I have with that location is of course the church and the fact that there’s no bridge over the Black River that I can detect. I also don’t see any signs of Waverly yard which would be approximately where this picture would’ve been taken however I’m not sure when Waverly yard was built. I do not see any signs of the GR H & C interurban which passed beneath the Pere Marquette track at approximately what is now mp CG25.0 so at this point I’m still skeptical.

Alternative location of this photo I thought could be on the north side of Holland on what is now the Fremont subdivision. The location is approximately where Lakewood Boulevard crosses the tracks. There is a church currently located in that general vicinity and churches have been around as long or longer than the railroad.

This is an image of the Holland depot that I found online and it was dated 1910 this is looking north from 8th St. notice the semaphore signal.
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Re: Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by DLM »

Reminds me of the hill coming north from the New Richmond bridge over the Kalamazoo River. The train in the postcard could be headed down to the bridge.

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Re: Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by GRHC »

DLM wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:14 pm
Reminds me of the hill coming north from the New Richmond bridge over the Kalamazoo River. The train in the postcard could be headed down to the bridge.
Yes that location kind of reminded me of New Richmond. I thought New Richmond would’ve been behind the train which would’ve been south or west in rail line direction. So the train would’ve been eastbound or heading north if you will. All in all when you take a very old photo and you could have five different people look at that photo and get five different opinions lol.

Note: I have come up with a third possible Holland location for that postcard and that would be on the Hamilton branch with the train heading towards Hamilton. The location would be just south east of what is now the 8th St. grade crossing. The Holland depot and the junction would be behind the train.

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Re: Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by kd_1014 »

GR H & C wrote:
Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:01 am
DLM wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:14 pm
Reminds me of the hill coming north from the New Richmond bridge over the Kalamazoo River. The train in the postcard could be headed down to the bridge.
Yes that location kind of reminded me of New Richmond. I thought New Richmond would’ve been behind the train which would’ve been south or west in rail line direction. So the train would’ve been eastbound or heading north if you will. All in all when you take a very old photo and you could have five different people look at that photo and get five different opinions lol.

Note: I have come up with a third possible Holland location for that postcard and that would be on the Hamilton branch with the train heading towards Hamilton. The location would be just south east of what is now the 8th St. grade crossing. The Holland depot and the junction would be behind the train.
Hamilton branch would make sense with the scene, but was it ever signalled in it's history? Assuming this signal isn't the junction signal or distant signal to the jct.

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Re: Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by GRHC »

kd_1014 wrote:
Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:08 pm
GR H & C wrote:
Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:01 am
DLM wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:14 pm
Reminds me of the hill coming north from the New Richmond bridge over the Kalamazoo River. The train in the postcard could be headed down to the bridge.
Yes that location kind of reminded me of New Richmond. I thought New Richmond would’ve been behind the train which would’ve been south or west in rail line direction. So the train would’ve been eastbound or heading north if you will. All in all when you take a very old photo and you could have five different people look at that photo and get five different opinions lol.

Note: I have come up with a third possible Holland location for that postcard and that would be on the Hamilton branch with the train heading towards Hamilton. The location would be just south east of what is now the 8th St. grade crossing. The Holland depot and the junction would be behind the train.
Hamilton branch would make sense with the scene, but was it ever signalled in it's history? Assuming this signal isn't the junction signal or distant signal to the jct.
I don’t know if the Hamilton branch was ever signal but I do know the Hamilton branch and the Fremont subdivision were directly connected via the dock track at one time with a second crossing over the Black River.

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Re: Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by DLM »

The postcard shows a grade and a curve. The Hamilton branch has curves close to 8th Street in Holland and a grade with no curves coming into Hamilton. There are no grades north or east of Holland. That leads me to think of the grade with curves between New Richmond and East Saugatuck.

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Re: Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by SD80MAC »

Hamilton branch was never signaled. The only parts of the PM that were signaled were Detroit-Porter, Saginaw-Toledo, and Saginaw-Ludington.
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Re: Hall "Banjo" Signals on the PMRR

Unread post by EWRice »

GR H & C wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:57 pm
GP30M4216 wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:15 pm
It's so funny how stuff like this happens...someone just posted a series of PM photos from the Grand Ledge Area District Library local history webpage and what do you know? A banjo signal in the mix!

Image_1650420536682.png
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1878555 ... 1589413785
Steve Horton's informative caption:
Hall disc (aka banjo) signal on west side of Grand Ledge. PM annual reports mention that it was installed in between July 1, 1906 and June 30, 1907 and was replaced with a semaphore between July 1, 1912 and June 30, 1913. Grand Ledge Historical Society collection.

This timeline jives perfectly with my original postcard which is postmarked 1910! Cool :D

As for where the Holland postcard image was taken, it's true that olde time postcard images were often mislabeled as other locations. I'm not sure that's the case here. The church on the left throws me off, but that could always be the artist' creative license. If I had to guess, I'd say this is a westbound just north of the depot
When I first looked at that pic I thought of all the places in Holland that has a curve and north of the Holland depot was one that stood out in my mind. The only problem I have with that location is of course the church and the fact that there’s no bridge over the Black River that I can detect. I also don’t see any signs of Waverly yard which would be approximately where this picture would’ve been taken however I’m not sure when Waverly yard was built. I do not see any signs of the GR H & C interurban which passed beneath the Pere Marquette track at approximately what is now mp CG25.0 so at this point I’m still skeptical.

Alternative location of this photo I thought could be on the north side of Holland on what is now the Fremont subdivision. The location is approximately where Lakewood Boulevard crosses the tracks. There is a church currently located in that general vicinity and churches have been around as long or longer than the railroad.

This is an image of the Holland depot that I found online and it was dated 1910 this is looking north from 8th St. notice the semaphore signal.
What you see is a train order signal. Completely separate from any block or interlocking signal, and used alongside various types of signals. Not connected in any way to other signals on the RR.

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