Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

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Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by David Collins »

I’ve been watching old videos of Amtrak trains in Michigan and I’ve found clips of the international. I’ve been wondering, when the train crosses into the US with Via Rail power, does it keep the VR power all the way to Chicago with Amtrak operating it or is it taken off somewhere?
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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by Dan Cluley »

Yes, the VIA engines and/or cars ran through to Chicago and then back the next day.

I got 364 crossing at 21st street just a few minutes out of Chicago Union Station in this video here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B66Y9BR ... z&index=35

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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by SD80MAC »

Like Dan said, the VIA power would run through to Chicago and back, and the Amtrak power would run to Toronto and back. The International stopped running shortly after 9/11/01.
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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by ConrailDetr​oit »

Wonder what the difference was in border delays or any other factors for the International versus any other Amtrak / VIA trains that still run and cross the border, given that only the International stopped running. The Maple Leaf from New York City to Toronto still runs through with an Amtrak engine.

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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by DaveO »

Amtrak needed Michigan money.
The Blue Water schedule was better suited to meet the needs of Michigan citizens.
Ridership went away after 9/11 when train riders had to take a bus across the river for US Inspection.
Never really recovered when onboard inspection resumed.
There seemed to be a mindset with Port Huron based Feds that anyone riding that train was a criminal.
No surprise what the end result was.

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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by Tom Train »

I rode the International several times, the most recent around 1998.Canada customs was easy. When asked the nature of my trip,I replied,to Toronto for a double hernia operation. The only other question I was asked was if I had health insurance. When asked why that was a concern,the officer said many Americans try to take advantage of Canada's liberal health insurance.

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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by Ypsi »

Crossing the boarder on Amtrak Cascades about 5 years ago was not bad, put your ID on your tray table/ at your seat and the agent walks by. Took like 20-30 mins to clear the train. You are theoretically already passed through a boarder check at the station in Vancouver as it was the only Canadian Station.

IF you brought back a train like this, it would likely make more sense to go via the AML, however to get to Via Rail in Windsor you need to run over Essex terminal.
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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by ConrailDetr​oit »

Ypsi wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 9:51 pm

IF you brought back a train like this, it would likely make more sense to go via the AML, however to get to Via Rail in Windsor you need to run over Essex terminal.
Might be more practical to run CP Windsor Sub from the Tunnel to where the CN Chrysler Spur branches off at the east end of Walkerville Yard and turns north to the wye at the Chatham Sub and shove in to the station, as the VIA trains currently do for the run back to Toronto when they don't have an engine on both ends.

Running over ETR which is branchline trackage would seem to mean much slower speed, more potential for hand switches to throw, and then the platform at the station would need to be extended (or re-extended) to more tracks, or a crossover installed to connect to the Chatham Sub to be on a track that touches the platform, and where the ETR trackage meets the VIA / CN trackage there may not be enough room for a passenger consist to fit anymore as the track ETR uses no longer crosses George Ave, contrary to the outdated google maps.

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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by Man o' War »

Ypsi wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 9:51 pm
Crossing the boarder on Amtrak Cascades about 5 years ago was not bad, put your ID on your tray table/ at your seat and the agent walks by. Took like 20-30 mins to clear the train. You are theoretically already passed through a boarder check at the station in Vancouver as it was the only Canadian Station.

IF you brought back a train like this, it would likely make more sense to go via the AML, however to get to Via Rail in Windsor you need to run over Essex terminal.
Seems to me that the most efficient and expedient routing for any new International would indeed be the AML (Chicago - Detroit), CN Mount Clemens sub (Detroit - Port Huron/Sarnia), thence Toronto. It is, after all, a straight shot out of the Detroit Amtrak station to PH, and the MTC sub is now a higher speed/CTC controlled route with plenty of capacity (including double track and 2 CTC equipped sidings). You would retain all of the busy AML stops, plus the added benefit of possible passenger stops in perhaps Mount Clemens and/or Richmond. Lots of east siders make the drive to Pontiac/Birmingham/Troy for a trip to Chicago. The infrastructure is entirely in place now - no great pinch points to deal with. A fast route with more business - no, we better not do that. :? :roll:

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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by Ypsi »

I did a fictional TT for my HO scale layout for a modern Amtrak international where it ran overnight between CHI and TOR. Arriving at about 8am local time at either location. Sleeper and coach service. This is a market where I think you would be able to have early arrivals while also having your sleep time (if you fancy sleeping on Amtrak) used efficiently. If you think about getting a flight, hotel, etc, taking an overnight train from CHI to TOR might be an attractive and price competitive option. Times are based on current VIA and Amtrak times on their separate TT's with a healthy amount of time to get from Detroit to the Windsor station.

A sample of what I did:

348- "International"
Chicago- 8:30p (CT)
New Buffalo- 10:49p (ET)
Niles- 11:20p
Kalamazoo- 11:54p
Battle Creek- 12:20a
Jackson- 1:13a
Ann Arbor- 1:55a
Dearborn- 2:30a
Detroit (MC Station)- 2:45a
Windsor (Via)- 3:30a
London (Via)- 5:20a
Toronto (Union Station)- 7:54a (ET)

349- "International"
Toronto (union Station)- 10:35p (ET)
Londan (Via)- 1:09a
Windsor (Via)- 2:59a
Detroit (MC Station)- 3:44a
Dearborn- 3:59a
Ann Arbor- 4:34a
Jackson- 5:10a
Battle Creek- 6:09a
Kalamazoo- 6:34a
Niles- 7:19a
New Buffalo- 7:39a (ET)
Chicago- 8:00a (CT)

This type of service would get Chicago and Toronto linked, allow passengers to use their night travel efficiently, and becomes useful as an early morning arrival into CHI or TOR.
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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by Man o' War »

Ypsi wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:13 pm
I did a fictional TT for my HO scale layout for a modern Amtrak international where it ran overnight between CHI and TOR. Arriving at about 8am local time at either location. Sleeper and coach service. This is a market where I think you would be able to have early arrivals while also having your sleep time (if you fancy sleeping on Amtrak) used efficiently. If you think about getting a flight, hotel, etc, taking an overnight train from CHI to TOR might be an attractive and price competitive option. Times are based on current VIA and Amtrak times on their separate TT's with a healthy amount of time to get from Detroit to the Windsor station.

A sample of what I did:

348- "International"
Chicago- 8:30p (CT)
New Buffalo- 10:49p (ET)
Niles- 11:20p
Kalamazoo- 11:54p
Battle Creek- 12:20a
Jackson- 1:13a
Ann Arbor- 1:55a
Dearborn- 2:30a
Detroit (MC Station)- 2:45a
Windsor (Via)- 3:30a
London (Via)- 5:20a
Toronto (Union Station)- 7:54a (ET)

349- "International"
Toronto (union Station)- 10:35p (ET)
Londan (Via)- 1:09a
Windsor (Via)- 2:59a
Detroit (MC Station)- 3:44a
Dearborn- 3:59a
Ann Arbor- 4:34a
Jackson- 5:10a
Battle Creek- 6:09a
Kalamazoo- 6:34a
Niles- 7:19a
New Buffalo- 7:39a (ET)
Chicago- 8:00a (CT)

This type of service would get Chicago and Toronto linked, allow passengers to use their night travel efficiently, and becomes useful as an early morning arrival into CHI or TOR.
Problem is, this is based on Amtrak once again utilizing MC station - and that, frankly, is highly unlikely to happen as long as there continues to be service between Detroit and Pontiac. Amtrak maintaining two stations in Detroit doesn't make sense. I believe if MC is ever used again for passenger service, it will be for some sort of commuter service to the west. Again, AML and CN from Detroit to Sarnia and Toronto relieves them of a two station (read $$$) scenario. I realize that this may make too much sense for those involved in route strategies at Amtrak/Via, as they are government entities after all - and well, you know how that works. I rest my case. :wink:

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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by ns8401 »

Man o' War wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:53 pm
Ypsi wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:13 pm
I did a fictional TT for my HO scale layout for a modern Amtrak international where it ran overnight between CHI and TOR. Arriving at about 8am local time at either location. Sleeper and coach service. This is a market where I think you would be able to have early arrivals while also having your sleep time (if you fancy sleeping on Amtrak) used efficiently. If you think about getting a flight, hotel, etc, taking an overnight train from CHI to TOR might be an attractive and price competitive option. Times are based on current VIA and Amtrak times on their separate TT's with a healthy amount of time to get from Detroit to the Windsor station.

A sample of what I did:

348- "International"
Chicago- 8:30p (CT)
New Buffalo- 10:49p (ET)
Niles- 11:20p
Kalamazoo- 11:54p
Battle Creek- 12:20a
Jackson- 1:13a
Ann Arbor- 1:55a
Dearborn- 2:30a
Detroit (MC Station)- 2:45a
Windsor (Via)- 3:30a
London (Via)- 5:20a
Toronto (Union Station)- 7:54a (ET)

349- "International"
Toronto (union Station)- 10:35p (ET)
Londan (Via)- 1:09a
Windsor (Via)- 2:59a
Detroit (MC Station)- 3:44a
Dearborn- 3:59a
Ann Arbor- 4:34a
Jackson- 5:10a
Battle Creek- 6:09a
Kalamazoo- 6:34a
Niles- 7:19a
New Buffalo- 7:39a (ET)
Chicago- 8:00a (CT)

This type of service would get Chicago and Toronto linked, allow passengers to use their night travel efficiently, and becomes useful as an early morning arrival into CHI or TOR.
Problem is, this is based on Amtrak once again utilizing MC station - and that, frankly, is highly unlikely to happen as long as there continues to be service between Detroit and Pontiac. Amtrak maintaining two stations in Detroit doesn't make sense. I believe if MC is ever used again for passenger service, it will be for some sort of commuter service to the west. Again, AML and CN from Detroit to Sarnia and Toronto relieves them of a two station (read $$$) scenario. I realize that this may make too much sense for those involved in route strategies at Amtrak/Via, as they are government entities after all - and well, you know how that works. I rest my case. :wink:

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It would make more sense to reverse it and have the commuter trains go north and the Toronto trains go straight. But using MC station as a stop for long distance trains would be the best government excess ever for the coolness factor if nothing else.
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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by DaveO »

The problem with using the MC Depot for commuter service is that it isn't downtown.
It is where it is because of the tunnel.
That location eliminated the need for long backup moves into/out of the truly downtown 3rd Street Station.

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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by Man o' War »

DaveO wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:02 am
The problem with using the MC Depot for commuter service is that it isn't downtown.
It is where it is because of the tunnel.
That location eliminated the need for long backup moves into/out of the truly downtown 3rd Street Station.
This is true. No matter how you slice it, any future use of MC depot for commuter or long distance service presents more than a little bit of a logistical conundrum. Perhaps Fords early thinking that it may be used for shuffling its employees between Ann Arbor/Dearborn may end up as the only practical use as far as rail is concerned, and personally, I'm even skeptical about that plan. Just as easy to drive your shiny new Ford to the MC campus.

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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by ConrailDetr​oit »

Just as easy to drive your shiny new Ford to the MC campus.
If working in an office returns for the majority that involves working in person, where will all of the vehicles park? Is a parking garage part of the redevelopment plans? maybe across Vernor in the space that Amtrak used in the 90s?

MCS was built and designed when trolleys, horse carriages, commuter trains, passenger trains, and having a vehicle wasn't as necessary nor affordable while most who worked in Detroit, actually lived in Detroit, and did not even own a Model T.

As Corktown and the east side of Mexicantown gets more redeveloped / gentrified / and changes for the sweet that inevitably includes the sour, parking in the area will become scarce and more expensive and commuter rail may be viewed as a practical solution. Parking on 14th around Roosevelt Park is usually very occupied with people going to Mercury, Cork and Gable, Slows, and all of the new hipster joints on Michigan (which is now all metered parking and usually occupied).

While if passenger trains ever run to MCS again, it will be in a long time. But never say never. Just a few years ago, we all thought MCS was likely going to be demoed due to location and possible structural issues, and who would have ever thought Ford was going to purchase?

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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by Steve B »

DaveO wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:59 am
The Blue Water schedule was better suited to meet the needs of Michigan citizens.
Except if you want to ride to Toronto. :D
But yes, for most riders it's better. Just a shame the International wasn't kept along with adding the Blue Water. I know, politically it wasn't feasible.

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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

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I fiddled around with re-establishing rail services in Detroit a while back... here is the route map I made (it's for all of MI): https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by Man o' War »

PerRock wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:24 pm
I fiddled around with re-establishing rail services in Detroit a while back... here is the route map I made (it's for all of MI): https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

peter
Peter, thanks for posting this. Very interesting and quite comprehensive. I really wonder what kind of ridership the UP routes could attract with the proper promotion? If only a few trillion could fall out of the sky for Michigan passenger infrastructure. Maybe we need to talk to those in D.C. that think money does grow on trees - they could move this along... :wink:

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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by Steve B »

PerRock wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:24 pm
I fiddled around with re-establishing rail services in Detroit a while back... here is the route map I made (it's for all of MI): https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

peter
Intriguing, though I'd add Detroit-Lansing-Grand Rapids before any northern routes.

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Re: Amtrak/Via Rail’s international

Unread post by Ypsi »

Problem is, this is based on Amtrak once again utilizing MC station - and that, frankly, is highly unlikely to happen as long as there continues to be service between Detroit and Pontiac. Amtrak maintaining two stations in Detroit doesn't make sense. I believe if MC is ever used again for passenger service, it will be for some sort of commuter service to the west. Again, AML and CN from Detroit to Sarnia and Toronto relieves them of a two station (read $$$) scenario. I realize that this may make too much sense for those involved in route strategies at Amtrak/Via, as they are government entities after all - and well, you know how that works. I rest my case. :wink:

Man o' War
The only reason I have MC as a station is because the TT I made was for my Ho scale layout. In all actuality skipping Detroit is probably fine and using using Dearborn instead. DER is very close to Detroit and anyone going to Toronto likely has access to a car or a bus to get to that transit hub.

IMO running north up to port Huron makes less sense as it becomes less time competitive to go to Toronto. It also doesn’t really hit any spots that would make a huge ridership difference. If you look at the states numbers, a few stations always carry the majority of state ridership, starting with Ann Arbor, Kalamazoo, and Dearborn. 4 of the top 5 stations are served mainly by Wolverine service trains (Ann Arbor, Kalamazoo, Dearborn, east landing, Detroit).
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