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For those that don't know what I'm talking about, the CASO Sub was a main line that connected Detroit to Buffalo, NY via Canada.

Who owned it exactly? Was it jointly owned by the C&O and NYC or was it C&O owned with avid trackage rights used by NYC? I've seen videos on Youtube of C&O/ Chessie/ CSX and NYC/PC trains operating on the line and to make things more confusing, maps of both railroads have identical looking routes.

Why was the CASO abandoned and removed (specific reasons)?

Exactly when was the line abandoned?

Would it have been profitable as a Class II international railroad?

If it were still in existence, would the line have been necessary/ useful today?

This link can provide more information about the old CASO Sub and other Ontario operations.

http://www.niagararails.com/caso.phtml

The CASO was the Canada Southern RR that was leased to Michigan Central in 1929. It became Michigan Central's Chicago to Buffalo route.
In 1985, it was purchased by CN & CP for an additional route through Ontario and for control of the Michigan Central RR Tunnel between Detroit and Windsor and the Michigan Central Bridge at Niagara Falls.

East of Windsor, the line was completely abandoned in May, 2011. Other segments were abandoned earlier. With only two freights and a local, CN did not need to maintain two mainlines out of Windsor so the CASO Sub was removed and CN utilized trackage rights over the VIA Chatham Sub which was formerly the CN's other mainline out of Windsor. CN 438 heads south out of Van De Water Yard and around the connection at Walker Rd to the CP Windsor Sub and to the Chrysler Spur which runs to the VIA Chatham Sub. 439 is the opposite.

Thanks! So if the NYC and C&O has 2 separate lines into Canada, why do the routes look pretty much the same on maps? Did the C&O parallel the NYC into Canada?

I also did some further research and found out that some time in the 80s, the C&O opted to utilize the then CN/CP joint line and abandoned their own which crossed the ex-NYC/CR line at St. Thomas (IIRC). Very interesting, indeed.

The C&O's ex-PM route from Windsor to Buffalo followed its own route east out of Windsor. It turned toward Lake Erie, going through McGregor, Harrow and Kingsville, then through Leamington and Blenheim before joining up with the CASO in St. Thomas. From St. Thomas to Suspension Bridge, NY, the PM/C&O had trackage rights over the CASO.

Go here for EVERYTHING you might want to know about the CASO Subdivision. http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/home.htm

Doktor No wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:34 pm

Go here for EVERYTHING you might want to know about the CASO Subdivision. http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/home.htm

There is lots of information here. What I would like to know is when were the tracks finished being laid through Tillbury, Ontario? I am "Finalizing" my words for the Train Calendar and need to know the accurate year the CASO was finished! Maybe searching through this link will help, but I would like some definite answers. I somehow thought the tracks being ripped up in December 2012 were laid in 1854! Is this right?

It's a shame the line was torn up.

It could have been a prime passenger route for VIA/Amtrak.

There is a book about Canada Southern entitled Canada Southern Country by Robert D. Tennant, Jr. published by the Boston Mills Press in 1991. The book gives all its history.

Robertrains wrote: ↑

Sun May 01, 2022 12:37 pm

Doktor No wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:34 pm

Go here for EVERYTHING you might want to know about the CASO Subdivision. http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/home.htm

There is lots of information here. What I would like to know is when were the tracks finished being laid through Tillbury, Ontario? I am "Finalizing" my words for the Train Calendar and need to know the accurate year the CASO was finished! Maybe searching through this link will help, but I would like some definite answers. I somehow thought the tracks being ripped up in December 2012 were laid in 1854! Is this right?

The CASO was completed between Fort Erie and Amherstburg in June 1873. According to the Detroit Free Press of 6/25/1873, "The first locomotive passed over the road Monday, the 231, leaving Fort Erie in the forenoon and arriving at Trenton at 10 p.m." A ferry to Grosse Ile was used until the "Essex Center Cut-off" to Windsor opened in Jan. 1883.

Some hunting around on various websites and books, especially the aforementioned "Canada Southern Country," will provide you with more details about when specific segments opened. None of it was built before 1870.

What I always found interesting about Canada Southern was their tracks in Michigan. One of the two former CR mainlines downriver was once a CS track from the Grosse Isle line. It cut southwest to Dundee or Petersburg then crossed the LSMS Old Road Line at Grovesner on its way to Chicago. However, funds ran out and the Chicago line only went to Morenci or somewhere just across the Ohio border and ended. Lenawee County Railroad for awhile ran this line from Grovesner. Then Adrian & Blissfield did but just for a mile or so where there was a fertilizer company on highway 223 until around 2000. Some of these tracks from Grovesner are still in place. A&B last used it to store cars.

I heard stories about when Penn Central or Conrail still ran this line. A local out of Adrian would pick up cars left at Lenawee Junction by a Toledo train and take them on the Canada Southern to switch the customers there once a week or so. The bridge over the River Raisin was so bad that the train would stop there and some of the crew would walk across it. The engineer would put the locomotive in notch one and release the brakes and get off! The train would by itself traverse the bridge and the crew on the other side jump on the locomotive and stop it when it got across the bridge! Then the engineer and the rest of the crew would walk across.