Holly Diamond

Any historical questions can be posted here. Answers would certainly help as well :)
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David Collins
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Holly Diamond

Unread post by David Collins »

I’m having a very hard time coming across information on the Holly Diamond just so I can add some knowledge to my brain, so if anyone has awnsers to these questions it’d be greatly appreciated

1. I know this a shocker, but I don’t know the awnser to this one, who was the original owner of the line that crossed the GTW, C&O?

2. Back in its peak days, how many trains would the diamond see between the GTW and the other railroad?

3. What types of trains could you normally see cross the diamond there?

4. Did any interchanging happen in Holly back in the day?
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AARR
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Re: Holly Diamond

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1. I know this a shocker, but I don’t know the answer to this one, who was the original owner of the line that crossed the GTW, C&O?
Detroit, Grand Haven & Milwaukee (I think that's right) was GTW's predecessor and I don't recall who Pere Marquette's was

2. Back in its peak days, how many trains would the diamond see between the GTW and the other railroad?
I don't know about C&O but at it's peak during the diesel era GTW operated 8-10 manifests, 1 local and 4 passenger trains through Holly. During the steam era it might have been double that.

3. What types of trains could you normally see cross the diamond there?
Freight trains have always been predominately automotive related even to this day. Back in the steam days there was a daily block of produce cars going into Detroit. Amazing that hardly any produce goes by rail into Detroit anymore.

4. Did any interchanging happen in Holly back in the day?
Yes, I'm not sure when it ended but it may have still been active through the 1970's and possibly early 1980's. Seems like there was some automotive traffic that originated on C&O in Chicago and was handed off to GTW at Holly destined for one of the three GM assembly plants in Pontiac.
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Re: Holly Diamond

Unread post by Saturnalia »

Don, the Pere Marquette’s predecessor should be easy! It was the Flint and Pere Marquette!! Haha :)
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Re: Holly Diamond

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Saturnalia wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:36 pm
Don, the Pere Marquette’s predecessor should be easy! It was the Flint and Pere Marquette!! Haha :)
I think that line was constructed by the Flint & Holly Railroad circa 1864. :lol:

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Re: Holly Diamond

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Thanks guys. I didn't feel like looking it up :wink: .
Standard Railfan wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:11 pm
Saturnalia wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:36 pm
Don, the Pere Marquette’s predecessor should be easy! It was the Flint and Pere Marquette!! Haha :)
I think that line was constructed by the Flint & Holly Railroad circa 1864. :lol:
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Re: Holly Diamond

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One of the early predecessor lines before PM was the Holly, Wayne and Monroe. In fact, there was a siding south of the diamond used for interchange that we always referred to as the HW&M track. I dispatched for C&O/Chessie in Saginaw from 1976-1988 including the line through Holly. During our busiest era, we ran 20 manifests through Holly plus the Saginaw-Holly (turn) local + unit coal loads/empties and unit grain trains as warranted. The GTW delivered their intercange cars to the C&O onto the aformentioned HW&M track and Vinegar Track south of the diamond. We delivered our cars to the GTW on a track west of the diamond on the south side of the GTW main. The GTW Holly Sub used to be timetable E/W. It is now designated N/S. Railroad traffic through Holly is indeed a shadow of its former self today! I spent many hours there watching the action in my pre employee days (and even some as an employee!)

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Re: Holly Diamond

Unread post by geeb557 »

While I presume most interchange at Holly was handled by locals the C&O operated a pair of contract trains for Conrail between Jackson & Flint that worked Holly. The Conrail Connector (CRCN) between Flint and Jackson and the Flint Flyer (FLFL) running the opposite direction were instituted in late October 1985. The Flint Flyer left Jackson with cars for Willow Run, Holly, South Flint (Atwood Yard) and Flint. Cars for the Grand Trunk were set off in Holly. The Conrail Connector left Flint with cars for the Santa Fe in Willow Springs, picking up more Willow Springs at Grand Blanc and Holly. Additional cars for Kalamazoo and Elkhart were picked up at Grand Blanc.

Conrail crews handled the train between Jackson & Wayne with C&O crews handling the train Wayne-Flint. The trains were operated into the CSX era appearing in the CSX freight schedule book dated December 1986 although they were gone by July of 1987. The trains were assigned numbers 210 (FLFL) & 211 (CRCN) in the CSX train numbering scheme although I don't know if they ever operated with those designations. The December 1986 book still has them with their C&O designations.

I don't know where the cars to the Trunk at Holly were destined but Flint seems like a good bet. I suppose Pontiac could have been a destination too. I have no information on what the Grand Trunk did with those cars after they were set off by the C&O or where the cars picked up by the C&O originated.

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Re: Holly Diamond

Unread post by C&O Dispatcher »

Nice write-up on trains CRCN/FLFL. I remember those trains, but by 1985 I was holding a job that dispatched the Ludington Sub and all the train order branches, so I wasn't working the south end job. I seem to recall that at Wayne a back-up move was required to/from Conrail because they had to use the southeast wye to change railroads. These trains were a nice example of a coordinated effort by railroads to serve the auto industry.

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Re: Holly Diamond

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I actually worked those trains a couple times and we ran through from Jackson to Flint. There were two turns in the pool, one CR and one CSX.
And yes, we did use the SE Wye as the trains were short and it was much simpler than using the NW Wye as that would involve getting a route through both yards. Using the NE Wye would have placed the power on the wrong end of the train. The train was built in Jackson with cars from Kalamazoo and Lansing. The couple times I worked it we had no intermediate work, a straight shot from Jackson to Flint and the same coming back.

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Re: Holly Diamond

Unread post by geeb557 »

Thanks for that information, Tim. Did you have to make qualifying trips Wayne to Flint, or did you have a pilot? In any event it's some "rare mileage" for your career rail map.

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Re: Holly Diamond

Unread post by C&O Dispatcher »

This is Holly the way I remember it. This is looking south down the GTW. The track on the far right is the "south side" where C&O delivered cars to the GTW. Up ahead you can see the interlocked switch to the connecting track to the C&O. The HW&M and Vinegar tracks are out of the photo behind the caboose of the C&O northbound. Photo credit to Charlie Whipp.
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Re: Holly Diamond

Unread post by KVERBERK »

Thats a really nice picture! I love seeing stuff from this era in Michigan, and the unusual perspective makes it even better. So much to take in, chessie loco, old chessie caboose, old signals, 86' auto parts box.
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Re: Holly Diamond

Unread post by GP30M4216 »

First, that Charlie Whipp shot of the Chessie U-Boat from the GTW cantilever signal is amazing. Thank you for sharing this!

Second, this thread brings up some questions. It seems hard to find information about Holly Interlocking Tower, one of the few towers still standing in MI. When was it built? What kind of interlocking machine did/does it have? When did it formally close? While the junction with single interchange track at Holly seems fairly straight forward, did the tower also control the end of the passing siding on the GT? Did they control any additional territory on the old PM side?

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Re: Holly Diamond

Unread post by C&O Dispatcher »

I have many of the same questions you pose regarding the interlocking tower at Holly. Unfortunately, I've never been able to find any information regarding its operation, nor any photos from the time it was still "manned." I did confirm that the operators were GTW employees. I presume the operator jobs were abolished after the CTC was placed in service and everything was controlled by the dispatcher at Durand. Not sure about the year -- mid to late 50s I would guess? My 1955 C&O timetable shows the tower still open. The C&O at that time was timetable/train order operation between Kearsley and Plymouth. I wish that when I used to visit the dispatchers in Durand back in the 60's I would have asked more questions! I can only speculate that the tower controlled the north switch of the siding and the interlocking signals in all directions. It would seem they would have also controlled the switches to/from the C&O, and maybe also to the HW&M on the C&O and the south side interchange track on the GTW which also became dispatcher controlled.

When I worked in Saginaw, the GTW had final control of the interlocking at Holly. Since it was within our CTC operation, we had to code the signal/s north or south for our movement, but the signal icon would just flash green until the GTW dispatcher lined as well. We also got an indication on our board when the GTW was lined for one of their trains, and a track light when it crossed the diamond. We could communicate with the GTW directly by ringing right onto their dispatcher's line and vice versa. I never recall having any issues about moving our trains through there. Everyone was cool!

As a side note, there was talk while I was in Saginaw of replacing the diamond at Holly with two power switches, but obviously that never happened.

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Re: Holly Diamond

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C&O Dispatcher wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:32 pm

As a side note, there was talk while I was in Saginaw of replacing the diamond at Holly with two power switches, but obviously that never happened.
Given the angle of the diamond, I'm surprised that it hasn't been replaced with power switches.
I don't think an OWLS diamond would work out the well there :P

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Re: Holly Diamond

Unread post by C&O Dispatcher »

Presume an OWLS diamond is more suitable at a crossing with the "right angle!"

Regarding the closing of the tower, further timetable investigation shows the tower still open in my October 1960 timetable, but no longer open in my October 1961 timetable. Guess that pretty much narrows it down! It's possible the tower was still open for a period after the CTC on the Holly Sub was completed. It was interesting to me that our C&O Kearsley tower was still open more than 10 years after CTC was extended south of Mt Morris. Glad it was since it was my first assignment back in 1970!

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Re: Holly Diamond

Unread post by C&O Dispatcher »

This is a paper schematic of how Holly appeared on our CTC panel in Saginaw. Obviously different than "real life." The signals labeled as "2" and "3" were controlled "hold out" signals at North Holly and South Holly. The other photo is from a C&O northbound waiting at the diamond for a southbound GTW train to clear. Photo taken by engineer Myron Wernette, who I understand recently passed away. You can see the HW&M interchange track on the right.
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Re: Holly Diamond

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We had to qualify on any new territory or requalify if you hadn't work over the territory for a certain length of time. We would receive a Conductor/Pilot or Engineer/Pilot for a certain number of trips, five if I recall correctly. Same with the CSX crews on the MC side.

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Re: Holly Diamond

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Love the picture of GTW GP9's running long hood forward
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Re: Holly Diamond

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Lansing State Journal, 12/4/51: GTW's board of directors was told that day by vice president C.A. Skog that CTC between Pontiac and Durand was scheduled for completion in Jan. 1952. The project had been announced in the press in May 1951.

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