CN Dearborn Sub

[SD80MAC]

Has anyone heard anything about CN wanting to CTC/PTC and up the speed on the Dearborn Sub?

[LansingRailFan]

Has anyone heard anything about CN wanting to CTC/PTC and up the speed on the Dearborn Sub?

Yes. I heard recently about this as well. Much excite.

[Chip]

They might want to convert from stick rail to CWR while they’re at it

[SD80MAC]

They might want to convert from stick rail to CWR while they’re at it

I believe that's part of the upgrading.

[LansingRailFan]

They might want to convert from stick rail to CWR while they’re at it

I believe that's part of the upgrading.

they are also converting the arches to warp speed arches similar to those circles you fly through on mario kart.

Upgrades supposedly in the works due to a planned increase in intermodal trains interchanged with the NS.

[DaveO]

about 13 miles of a branch that ends at rouge and crosses three railroads doing so.
not really the kind of track that throwing money at will result in adequate returns in my opinion.
so they will probably start tomorrow.

[David Lang]

Hi LRF,

Can you tell us more about this planned increase in Intermodal trains interchanged with NS?? Is this something that might add trains to the Holly Sub by chance? Thanks.

[LansingRailFan]

Hi LRF,

Can you tell us more about this planned increase in Intermodal trains interchanged with NS?? Is this something that might add trains to the Holly Sub by chance? Thanks.

https://www.cn.ca/en/stories/20230911-c ... -solution/

idk if it is blocks of cans or entire trains. but this increase in traffic is supposedly the reason for updating that section of line.

[David Lang]

Hey LRF,

Thanks for the response and article. So work on the Dearborn sub to accommodate blocks of cars or actual new trains doesn't make sense to me for the following reason, "if" the work being done is because of NS/CN interchange of new intermodal traffic.

For cars/trains impacting Michigan, the Article states the following:

Atlanta, GA to and from Toronto, ON---Northbound/EB 3.7 days, Southbound/WB 3.3 days
Kansas City, MO to and from Toronto, ON---NB/EB 3.8 days, SB/WB 3.6 days

Ok, so if we assume cars/trains coming up the NS Detroit line (Ex Wabash) to Detroit, and its destination was Toronto, how would the CN Dearborn Sub even be involved at all?? Cars/trains would go past the NS Melvindale Yard, past Delray, then up the Mt. Clemens Sub to Pt. Huron and onto Toronto - Well, I guess full trains would do that. So even blocks of cars using the Dearborn sub still doesn't make sense to me "unless" these cars/trains come into CN's Flat Rock Yard via the I&O? Then up the Dearborn sub to...somewhere...ultimately making their way North on the Mt. Clemens sub. I don't see the Holly Sub being involved at all unless there was intermodal interchange at Moterm.

Will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

[David Collins]

Would they have to take down the arches because of the height of the containers?

[Chip]

Would they have to take down the arches because of the height of the containers?

If autoracks fit there should be no reason double stacked containers wouldn’t be able to.

[David Lang]

Double Stacks are taller than autoracks of course, but looking at both pictures and a youtube video of autoracks going under them, it appears there is plenty of room to run doublestacks.

It would be interesting though to know what the height of those arches are. They sure have stood the test of time, being built in the 1920s I believe.

[atrainguy60]

I know the wiki is really out of date, but I notice it says there is a CN interchange train between Flat Rock and Oakwood Yard (R975). If that or something similar is still running now, perhaps the plan is to have that train pick up blocks of intermodal at Oakwood, take them back to Flat Rock, then L507 will take them north to Flint. There they'll be picked up by whatever eastbound train(s) works Flint to be taken to Toronto. That would explain why CN's map of the new intermodal system shows the Holly Sub highlighted and not the Mt Clemens Sub.

[Chip]

This could explain why there’s been a bunch of empty well cars being stored in Flat Rock for close to 2 years.

[jggilmore7]

Hey LRF,

"Ok, so if we assume cars/trains coming up the NS Detroit line (Ex Wabash) to Detroit, and its destination was Toronto, how would the CN Dearborn Sub even be involved at all?? Cars/trains would go past the NS Melvindale Yard, past Delray, then up the Mt. Clemens Sub to Pt. Huron and onto Toronto - Well, I guess full trains would do that."

JG: Bingo, glad you mentioned it because anything from KC would never use the Dearborn Branch to interchange with CN, as you outlined above.

"So even blocks of cars using the Dearborn sub still doesn't make sense to me "unless" these cars/trains come into CN's Flat Rock Yard via the I&O? Then up the Dearborn sub to...somewhere...ultimately making their way North on the Mt. Clemens sub. I don't see the Holly Sub being involved at all unless there was intermodal interchange at Moterm."

JG: Don't see NS using I&O for any Atlanta intermodal service when they have their own routes, like Cincy-Fort Wayne-Detroit. And even if they somehow did use the I&O they would never need to use the Dearborn Branch as they could just roll by Flat Rock to Delray and Milwaukee Jct. Something's missing here and it needs more explanation...

JG

[Man o' War]

Out and about today, had the chance to ask some CN signal maintainers the original question posed here, and neither one of them knew anything about upgrades to the Dearborn sub. Not saying that this won't happen, but generally speaking, CN employees are a bit more informed than the railfan community about such matters. The Dearborn sub doesn't seem to fit in any way, shape or form, in expediting NS/CN intermodal swaps- especially with streamlined, signalled connections already existing between the two roads. Could be that CN has some grand scheme cooked up with regard to the Dearborn - but none of the local signal folks are talking if they do. I'll believe it when I see it...

Man o' War

[SD80MAC]

So after confirming with some reliable sources, its happening. I'm not surprised the maintainers don't know anything because the boots on the ground guys are usually the last to know anything, unfortunately. The Dearborn Sub will be upgraded to 40 mph with CTC, PTC, and CWR. This is for new intermodal traffic that will be interchanged with NS, supposedly 2 trains each way per day. Instead of taking the connector at Delray, the trains will run down through Rodney on the CN, west to Alice, then north on the Dearborn Sub to Oakwood Jct. Seems roundabout, but that's the plan.

[AARR]

TY for confirming.

Do you know if the plan is for these trains to use the Holly or Mt. Clemens Sub?

Instead of taking the connector at Delray, the trains will run down through Rodney on the CN, west to Alice, then north on the Dearborn Sub to Oakwood Jct. Seems roundabout, but that's the plan.

[Chip]

So after confirming with some reliable sources, its happening. I'm not surprised the maintainers don't know anything because the boots on the ground guys are usually the last to know anything, unfortunately. The Dearborn Sub will be upgraded to 40 mph with CTC, PTC, and CWR. This is for new intermodal traffic that will be interchanged with NS, supposedly 2 trains each way per day. Instead of taking the connector at Delray, the trains will run down through Rodney on the CN, west to Alice, then north on the Dearborn Sub to Oakwood Jct. Seems roundabout, but that's the plan.

I’m assuming they’ll take the wye at Alice to the Dearborn sub and not go into the yard unless they for whatever reason need to do a power swap. Where is Rodney?

[Saturnalia]

I'm not surprised the maintainers don't know anything because the boots on the ground guys are usually the last to know anything, unfortunately.

I have to agree unfortunately, especially since projects usually do not cross between departments, and keep in mind the maintenance is separate from construction/upgrade/capital projects at the big railroads, so basically consider those entirely separate departments as well.

One of my favorite parts of my job is trying to share more of the "intel" with people, both in the craft I help manage and the others. I find that most people wanna know what's going on, and its a great way to engage with craft folks as a manager, especially from different departments. Lots of the time change is new an exciting, and its much more fun when you know what's coming down the pike.