What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

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dalek ling
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What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by dalek ling »

So it’s been almost a decade since the state proposed a commuter line that would be revolution, a coast to coast line connecting Michigans Lower Peninsula biggest population, economic, and capital centers, but since then, there’s been little news, only one study, and only commuter line in Michigan that is getting more attention is A2TC

I believe in A2TC, but that should come last or be like an “extension” to the CTC, so what happened and do you believe it could still happen?
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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by GRHC »

I’m not going to respond or comment about the contents of this post I’m just gonna sit back and wait for JT.

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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by PatAzo »

The personal auto is too convenient. There is no broad public demand for the service. So no money. No money, no train.

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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by DaveO »

A commuter train takes people from near their home to near their job and vice-versa.

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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by J T »

I'm curious to see what the average income is for people involved in these "studies."
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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by Plannerdad »

dalek ling wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:37 am
So it’s been almost a decade since the state proposed a commuter line that would be revolution, a coast to coast line connecting Michigans Lower Peninsula biggest population, economic, and capital centers, but since then, there’s been little news, only one study, and only commuter line in Michigan that is getting more attention is A2TC

I believe in A2TC, but that should come last or be like an “extension” to the CTC, so what happened and do you believe it could still happen?
It was not proposed nor funded by MDOT.

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justalurker66
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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by justalurker66 »

J T wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:21 pm
I'm curious to see what the average income is for people involved in these "studies."
Before or after they are paid to write the study? Or are you referring to the respondents to the study that show any support for the proposal?

(And yes, this is regional rail not commuter rail. But the most accurate current description is fictional rail.)

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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by J T »

justalurker66 wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:19 am
J T wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:21 pm
I'm curious to see what the average income is for people involved in these "studies."
Before or after they are paid to write the study? Or are you referring to the respondents to the study that show any support for the proposal?
All of the above. I'm sure there are many people involved in these studies that go nowhere. I've always wondered what kind of income they get out of it.
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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by Ben Higdon »

This quote sums it up: "Eli Cooper, Ann Arbor's transportation program manager, said the A2TC Train is a cool idea"

While they need $1M to do a study, they estimate (in 2018) it would cost $150M to upgrade the route for 60mph service. I bet it would cost at least five times that amount to produce a service that operates as reliably as Amtrak, which is a joke in itself. Meanwhile we can throw a consulting agency another few hundred thousand to have an intern spend a week regurgitating the same load of BS thats produced by every one of these studies.

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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by justalurker66 »

Not all studies are useless, but enough are (especially the repeat studies) that studies get a bad reputation. Some seem to be driven by solutions in search of a problem.

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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by Plannerdad »

My personal objection to the C2C study, is that under some scenarios, the C2C service would make money. To me, this means the consultant did not accurately look at all the costs vs revenue projections. No transit or rail passenger service in the US makes money, and probably has not since the 50’s. That’s why the government is involved. I have no objection to spending public money on transit service or AMTRAK, but don’t do a study concluding this service would make a profit.

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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by PatAzo »

What need would the proposed service fulfill? With the exception of Muskegon and for practical purposes Holland, the state capitol is connected to every other major Michigan city with public ground transportation. Grayhound will carry you from Detroit to Grand Rapids in 2:45 for $38. By comparison Amtrak Detroit to Kalamazoo is $33-$70 and about 2:50. So rail over bus doesn't hold much of an advantage for the passenger. From the tax payer prospective why finance a tax supported service when a private operator already serves the route.

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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by KenB »

A train from Detroit to Michigan City makes more sence than an Ann Arbor train to Traverse City. There are several collages along the route. Connect Detroit with Lansing. Force the State employees to use the train between Lansing-Detroit and it is more connectivity for when the Governmant forces us to have only electric automobiles.

Best case: 1. a comuter service from Ann Arbor to Detroit with some service to Jackson.
2. A Detroit-Michigan City passenger train.
3. Detroit-Traverse City via Ann Arbor.

This would really connect the State. Do not forget. This is not an airline wher people get on in Detroit and go to Traverse City only. There is travel between Cadillac and TC, AA to Cadillac. The trains cover those smaller stops shuned by the bus.

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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by justalurker66 »

KenB wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:21 pm
A train from Detroit to Michigan City makes more sence than an Ann Arbor train to Traverse City.
There was one and now there isn't one. Amtrak now passes the closed station but still connects to a useful destination - Chicago.
KenB wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:21 pm
There are several collages along the route. Connect Detroit with Lansing. Force the State employees to use the train between Lansing-Detroit and it is more connectivity for when the Governmant forces us to have only electric automobiles.
There are not enough state employees to support a train service even if they were forced to use it. Electric vehicles are improving - at this point there is no need for separate connectivity for EV drivers (as if EVs couldn't make the hop between Lansing and Detroit and back?).
KenB wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:21 pm
Best case: 1. a comuter service from Ann Arbor to Detroit with some service to Jackson.
2. A Detroit-Michigan City passenger train.
3. Detroit-Traverse City via Ann Arbor.
Number 1 (additional frequencies between Detroit and Ann Arbor) is worth a thought. Any studies find a need? Or is this another situation where one keeps redoing the study until a need is "found"? A solution in search of a problem?

Number 2 has already failed ... but Detroit-Chicago is a success.

Number 3 is another solution in search of a problem. When one finds the problem a Traverse City train would solve one will find several better solutions than a train.
KenB wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:21 pm
This would really connect the State. Do not forget. This is not an airline wher people get on in Detroit and go to Traverse City only. There is travel between Cadillac and TC, AA to Cadillac. The trains cover those smaller stops shuned by the bus.
Properly scheduled the bus can serve more communities but, like trains, the more stops they make the more useless they become to the people not using those stops. Grand Rapids to Kalamazoo in an hour. A good route. But Grand Rapids to Kalamazoo via Holland and Benton Harbor? Not so good for the traveler not needing the intermediate stops.

At least most train routes are tangents instead of circles. The distance between any two points on a train route is usually less than the alternative route. The train loses the distance race if one has to back track to get to the station or the ultimate destination.

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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by JStryker722 »

In my honest opinion, the first thing MDOT badly needs to do if they were going to add Amtrak trains, is to first add a 4th (and preferably a 5th) Wolverine round-trip to close the "afternoon gap" on the east end (my end of the Wolverine corridor). Going off of Dearborn Station arrival times (since that is the Station I live closest to, just down the road from me), there is a 5.5 hour gap between when 350 arrives at around 1pm heading East and 355 arrives at around 6:30pm (same trainset, btw). Also, 350 being the first eastbound train of the day does no good for allowing at least an abbreviated business day or decent personal day in Detroit for sports events or whatever.

What I would hope MDOT would do in the future, is somehow add an Detroit-Ann Arbor/Jackson or an Detroit-Kalamazoo round-trip that gets day travelers going into Detroit before 11am. The train could flip later than 355 at say 7 or 8pm for the return trip. The biggest hurdle isn't passenger demand but fleet logistics as you'd have to figure out how to flip this intra-state trainset back to Chicago for maintenance as required.
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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by chapmaja »

DaveO wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:46 pm
A commuter train takes people from near their home to near their job and vice-versa.
However commuter rail does expand the distance from one's home to where they work over the automobile in some areas because of multiple factors. First, it allows work time to be conducted while you are commuting, so the 9-5 job may only be a 10-4 in office job. That hour on the train each direction could be spent working, something that you could not do while driving (even in a self driving car). Second, in many areas it expands the distance from the city you are able to work because the train provides faster travel times from the home to the city than the car does due to traffic congestion on the roads.

In theory, properly instituted commuter rail in Michigan could expand the area from people well out from the cities, and potentially allow someone to live in the Lansing area but work in Detroit.

The reason it would never work is Michigan's cities don't maintain the density of employers that require the number of employees to be traveling into the city to work.

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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by chapmaja »

KenB wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:21 pm
A train from Detroit to Michigan City makes more sence than an Ann Arbor train to Traverse City. There are several collages along the route. Connect Detroit with Lansing. Force the State employees to use the train between Lansing-Detroit and it is more connectivity for when the Governmant forces us to have only electric automobiles.

Best case: 1. a comuter service from Ann Arbor to Detroit with some service to Jackson.
2. A Detroit-Michigan City passenger train.
3. Detroit-Traverse City via Ann Arbor.

This would really connect the State. Do not forget. This is not an airline wher people get on in Detroit and go to Traverse City only. There is travel between Cadillac and TC, AA to Cadillac. The trains cover those smaller stops shuned by the bus.
There is one train I think needs to be reinstated that has been gone as long at I can recall. Maybe this could be included in a 4th run of the Wolverine trainset which I feel should be added.

Detroit to Toledo - timed so that it would reach a connection with the Lake Shore Limited. Unfortunately, now the only way to take a train from the Detroit area to New York or Boston is to drive to Toledo or take Amtrak west to Chicago then head east.

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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by ConrailDetr​oit »

chapmaja wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:41 am


There is one train I think needs to be reinstated that has been gone as long at I can recall. Maybe this could be included in a 4th run of the Wolverine trainset which I feel should be added.

Detroit to Toledo - timed so that it would reach a connection with the Lake Shore Limited. Unfortunately, now the only way to take a train from the Detroit area to New York or Boston is to drive to Toledo or take Amtrak west to Chicago then head east.
Another Wolverine that leaves Chicago at 4.30am Central Time and arrives in Pontiac around 11.30am would be ideal. Similarly of how 351 leaves Pontiac around 5.30am and gets to Chicago around 10.30am Central Time and allows for a full day at the destination city.

Also a Wolverine that leaves around 2pm from Pontiac, similar to back in 2014-2015 when 359 would leave in the middle of the afternoon. Allows for an afternoon train ride that gets to Chicago right around "average bedtime hours" as opposed to late nite like 354/355.

The Amtrak Connection bus between Detroit and Toledo leaves Detroit to arrive in Toledo around 10.30pm, in time for the Capitol Limited. Same with the buses that leave Toledo after the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited arrive, and the Greyhound service to Detroit that uses the same station in Toledo. No need to drive to Toledo, although may be more preferable than an hour bus ride.

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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by Saturnalia »

JStryker722 wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:43 am
In my honest opinion, the first thing MDOT badly needs to do if they were going to add Amtrak trains, is to first add a 4th (and preferably a 5th) Wolverine round-trip to close the "afternoon gap" on the east end (my end of the Wolverine corridor). Going off of Dearborn Station arrival times (since that is the Station I live closest to, just down the road from me), there is a 5.5 hour gap between when 350 arrives at around 1pm heading East and 355 arrives at around 6:30pm (same trainset, btw). Also, 350 being the first eastbound train of the day does no good for allowing at least an abbreviated business day or decent personal day in Detroit for sports events or whatever.

What I would hope MDOT would do in the future, is somehow add an Detroit-Ann Arbor/Jackson or an Detroit-Kalamazoo round-trip that gets day travelers going into Detroit before 11am. The train could flip later than 355 at say 7 or 8pm for the return trip. The biggest hurdle isn't passenger demand but fleet logistics as you'd have to figure out how to flip this intra-state trainset back to Chicago for maintenance as required.
I think you're on the right track with this one. Another turn for the Pere Marquette and Blue Water would also be worthy additions to the schedule, at least on a pilot basis. I'm envious of how the 380/381/382/383 offer two round trips to Quincy, for instance, and there is all that talk of a counterpart balance for the Empire Builder between Chicago and the Twin Cities. Not necessarily as popular as the main trains, but adding options will attract more riders, because the train schedule is more likely to line up with their needs.
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Re: What Happened to the Coast to Coast? Michigans possible only commuter line that could work

Unread post by Dan Cluley »

Saturnalia wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:07 am
... Another turn for the Pere Marquette and Blue Water would also be worthy additions to the schedule, at least on a pilot basis...
A morning train to GR/early evening back to CHI seems like a great idea.

The extra couple of hours to Port Huron would make scheduling a reverse Blue Water trickier, but I wonder how many passengers you would give up if the mid day train flipped back at Flint?

Realistically, I suspect that the public ownership of the Michigan Line makes more trains there an easier proposition.

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