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GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 11:20 pm
by chapmaja
This is a very big what if question. This is not a rumor or a plan or anything like that.
If the GLC and AA were to merger, how would this change the operations of the railroads?
I can think of only 1 substantial change that would occur and that would be the CSX-GLC interchange at AnnPere would see a substantial decrease in traffic and the interchange traffic would be moved to Toledo between CSX.
In terms of operations, I don't think you would see substantial changes. I think the biggest change would be the operations of the Toledo-Osmer and Owosso-Osmer trains. I think you might see this turn into a straight run up from Toledo-Owosso with crews meeting and changing trains to return to their home city at Osmer or Chilson.
I don't think much would change with CN-GLC/AA interchange as Durand is more centrally located on CN lines than Toledo. I don't think NS interchange would change any.
I do wonder if you might see more traffic taking an IORY - GLC/AA routing up into Michigan.
I don't know if it will ever happen, I would like to see these lines merge back together and recreate what is left of the old AA.
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:34 pm
by AARR
Would AnnPere remain an active interchange or would all CSX traffic go to Toledo?
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:19 pm
by SD80MAC
AARR wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:34 pm
Would AnnPere remain an active interchange or would all CSX traffic go to Toledo?
I would guess it would all go to Toledo, which would not be good for the Plymouth Sub.
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:35 pm
by dalek ling
chapmaja wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2023 11:20 pm
This is a very big what if question. This is not a rumor or a plan or anything like that.
If the GLC and AA were to merger, how would this change the operations of the railroads?
I can think of only 1 substantial change that would occur and that would be the CSX-GLC interchange at AnnPere would see a substantial decrease in traffic and the interchange traffic would be moved to Toledo between CSX.
In terms of operations, I don't think you would see substantial changes. I think the biggest change would be the operations of the Toledo-Osmer and Owosso-Osmer trains. I think you might see this turn into a straight run up from Toledo-Owosso with crews meeting and changing trains to return to their home city at Osmer or Chilson.
I don't think much would change with CN-GLC/AA interchange as Durand is more centrally located on CN lines than Toledo. I don't think NS interchange would change any.
I do wonder if you might see more traffic taking an IORY - GLC/AA routing up into Michigan.
I don't know if it will ever happen, I would like to see these lines merge back together and recreate what is left of the old AA.
So According to a rail worker for GLC this is what he said if it would happen.
So Toledo to as far north as Ithaca will see more traffic due to the ZFS and other industries up there.
Ithaca to Cadillac will have same number of traffic if not then maybe one more run
There had been plans to have a translating facility in Kalkaska, if they merged, this could be build and if this is build. The TC branch would be abandoned (If A2TC doesn’t happen) and everything north of Kalkaska would be removed
Speaking of passenger trains, A2TC and SRI operations are going to be mixed (especially if traffic is increased) so they possibly wouldn’t run or at least run trains from Owosso to Ithaca.
So that’s what would happen if AA merge with GLC according to an employee from GLC.
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 7:38 am
by Steve B
dalek ling wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:35 pm
The TC branch would be abandoned (If A2TC doesn’t happen) and everything north of Kalkaska would be removed
GLC doesn't have authority to "abandon" that line or north of Kalkaska. That trackage (like all its system except for HESR Durand-Owosso, Middleton Branch and perhaps Owosso shop tracks) is owned by the state.
GLC likely cannot drop service on a whim to those areas without revising its agreement with the state.
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:53 am
by LansingRailFan
Steve B wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 7:38 am
dalek ling wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:35 pm
The TC branch would be abandoned (If A2TC doesn’t happen) and everything north of Kalkaska would be removed
GLC doesn't have authority to "abandon" that line or north of Kalkaska. That trackage (like all its system except for HESR Durand-Owosso, Middleton Branch and perhaps Owosso shop tracks) is owned by the state.
GLC likely cannot drop service on a whim to those areas without revising its agreement with the state.
100 P frfr
But...Watco could determine that they do not want to go north of Cadillac and someone else could operate up there.
I think we would probably see some amount of interchanging still at Ann Pere. There's a lot of GLC traffic that heads west on CSX. You're adding two days shipping by having it all go down to Toledo I can think of one customer in particular that would not appreciate that.
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:28 am
by AARR
LansingRailFan wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:53 am
But...Watco could determine that they do not want to go north of Cadillac and someone else could operate up there.
And another paper railroad is born
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:53 am
by LansingRailFan
AARR wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:28 am
LansingRailFan wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:53 am
But...Watco could determine that they do not want to go north of Cadillac and someone else could operate up there.
And another paper railroad is born
Yes. The Northern Transload RR. Possibilities are endless.
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:50 am
by TC Man
I think someone is smoking something. No way GLC is bought out by Watco anytime soon. Mark my words, all who say this is happening in March come back to this post a year from now and tell me this merger happened (or should I say did NOT happen).
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:36 pm
by 1TrackMind
TC Man wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:50 am
I think someone is smoking something. No way GLC is bought out by Watco anytime soon. Mark my words, all who say this is happening in March come back to this post a year from now and tell me this merger happened (or should I say did NOT happen).
Bet
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:40 pm
by 1TrackMind
dalek ling wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:35 pm
The TC branch would be abandoned (If A2TC doesn’t happen) and everything north of Kalkaska would be removed
I don't see that happening. This is Watco not G&W. Watco will hunt down a customer that only gets 1 car a month. More than likely they would try to get at least one or two more small customers in TC. Or just run it as it is and off set the expense with business on the south end.
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:51 pm
by AARR
1TrackMind wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:40 pm
dalek ling wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:35 pm
The TC branch would be abandoned (If A2TC doesn’t happen) and everything north of Kalkaska would be removed
I don't see that happening. This is Watco not G&W. Watco will hunt down a customer that only gets 1 car a month. More than likely they would try to get at least one or two more small customers in TC. Or just run it as it is and off set the expense with business on the south end.
Materne could get 4-10 carloads of apples per month. Just saying
.
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:02 pm
by NS3322
AARR wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:51 pm
1TrackMind wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:40 pm
dalek ling wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:35 pm
The TC branch would be abandoned (If A2TC doesn’t happen) and everything north of Kalkaska would be removed
I don't see that happening. This is Watco not G&W. Watco will hunt down a customer that only gets 1 car a month. More than likely they would try to get at least one or two more small customers in TC. Or just run it as it is and off set the expense with business on the south end.
Materne could get 4-10 carloads of apples per month. Just saying
.
But the rail bikes live there now.
I cite Watco's FOXY Medford Subdivision as the prime example of them hunting down customers that only get 1-5 cars a month.
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:40 pm
by GP30M4216
In this hypothetical situation, I could see a Toledo to Owosso or Owosso to Toledo train needing to focus on getting over the road and not having enough time to work all the online customers along the way. I could see a definite need for a local based out of the small yard at Milan. This job could work industries perhaps as far north as North Territorial Road down through Dundee, catch and setoff any IORY interchange, and work the local NS interchange as well. This way Toledo could just build a Milan block including all of the above and then local customers and Owosso and any AnnPere traffic. Same on the reverse, southbound run.
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:58 pm
by atrainguy60
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC GLC runs two local turns on their line between Cadillac and Owosso, with them meeting in Clare and swapping trains before returning to their respective terminals. Could something similar happen between Owosso and Toledo? Maybe have a southbound out of Owosso and a northbound out of Toledo and they meet somewhere in the middle, perhaps Osmer?
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:57 am
by chapmaja
atrainguy60 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:58 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC GLC runs two local turns on their line between Cadillac and Owosso, with them meeting in Clare and swapping trains before returning to their respective terminals. Could something similar happen between Owosso and Toledo? Maybe have a southbound out of Owosso and a northbound out of Toledo and they meet somewhere in the middle, perhaps Osmer?
That is exactly what I would expect to have happen. The OSTN and TNTN (Toledo North Turn) would meet in Osmer and swap trains.
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:05 am
by Standard Railfan
chapmaja wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:57 am
atrainguy60 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:58 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC GLC runs two local turns on their line between Cadillac and Owosso, with them meeting in Clare and swapping trains before returning to their respective terminals. Could something similar happen between Owosso and Toledo? Maybe have a southbound out of Owosso and a northbound out of Toledo and they meet somewhere in the middle, perhaps Osmer?
That is exactly what I would expect to have happen. The OSTN and TNTN (Toledo North Turn) would meet in Osmer and swap trains.
So in other words, this fantasy merger that will not happen would not really change anything.
I recall being told by Ann Arbor RR employees in the 1960s that the AA ran almost like to separate railroads. The east end, Owosso to Toledo, made a $4MM profit and the west end, Owosso to Elberta, lost $6MM.
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:07 am
by Chip
That’s… that’s not how you run a successful business. No wonder they folded.
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:28 am
by LansingRailFan
atrainguy60 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:58 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC GLC runs two local turns on their line between Cadillac and Owosso, with them meeting in Clare and swapping trains before returning to their respective terminals. Could something similar happen between Owosso and Toledo? Maybe have a southbound out of Owosso and a northbound out of Toledo and they meet somewhere in the middle, perhaps Osmer?
That's how they used to operate. It's pretty messy these days.
Re: GLC / AA Merger WHAT IF
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:55 am
by Steve B
Chip wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:07 am
That’s… that’s not how you run a successful business. No wonder they folded.
Are you familiar with the Interstate Commerce Commission and the stranglehold of pre-1980 regulation?
The AA did get ICC approval to abandon the Manistique and Menominee runs. But that wasn't sufficient to regain profitability, and the good-faith ferry repowering & clearance improvement efforts weren't enough either.
If the Ann Arbor's June 1972 application to abandon the Manitowoc & Kewaunee ferry lines, plus Thompsonville to Frankfort had been approved by the sclerotic ICC, it would have had a chance to become a successful business again. The abandonment hearings dragged on interminably and the AA went bankrupt in Oct. 1973.
