A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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Surprised how no holly sub railroad have posted anything about this, but the M2 mast at Opdyke/Kensington Road in Bloomfield Hills now has a SECOND signal head on it. The last time I drove by the crossing, the new head was facing sideways since it hadn't been activated yet, but this was a few weeks ago, so things may have changed.

Originally, the signals at the crossing had two heads on the M1 mast and one on the M2. The new signal head is a two aspect signal. I've been hearing rumors that this addition of the second head is a sign of CN converting the signals from ABS to Absolute. Can anyone confirm this?

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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Does it have a number plate on it? Weather a signal is "absolute" or not has nothing to do with ABS.
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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

Unread post by Man o' War »

Many similar type changes have occurred on the MTC sub as well (i.e additional heads on masts, etc.). These were required as part of the changes from speed signaling to route signaling on this particular sub. Aside from a handful of intermediates out in the corn fields, all signals here now have multiple heads in order to portray additional aspects. Does the Holly still operate under speed signal rules, or perhaps they are changing to route lights too? Have no idea, but thought I'd toss in what's happening on the MTC lately as far as signal changes.

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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Supposedly all of CN in Michigan is changing to route signaling.
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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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SD80MAC wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:42 pm
Does it have a number plate on it? Weather a signal is "absolute" or not has nothing to do with ABS.
Yes, 22.1 and 22.3 , but can they convert them to absolute signals?

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

Unread post by Manistique »

This was posted awhile back the day it went up on the CN board. It is still not activated as of today.

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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David Collins wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:51 pm
SD80MAC wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:42 pm
Does it have a number plate on it? Weather a signal is "absolute" or not has nothing to do with ABS.
Yes, 22.1 and 22.3 , but can they convert them to absolute signals?
Number plates mean they're intermediates. Unless they're installed crossovers there or something, there would be zero reason to make them absolutes.
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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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What is a "holly sub railroad" and how would it be able to post anything here?
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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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SD80MAC wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:53 pm
Number plates mean they're intermediates. Unless they're installed crossovers there or something, there would be zero reason to make them absolutes.
Well some 8+ miles to the south, by Royal Oak Middle School, is CN Raven.
There is no trackage there to justify that controlled signal.
CN Haydon on the east side of Battle Creek is the same principle.

As I mentioned in the previous discussion, this new signal may become an absolute to be used to hold northbound trains so they don't stop at CN MAL
and block the road crossings.

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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David Collins wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:09 pm
Surprised how no holly sub railroad have posted anything about this, but the M2 mast at Opdyke/Kensington Road in Bloomfield Hills now has a SECOND signal head on it. The last time I drove by the crossing, the new head was facing sideways since it hadn't been activated yet, but this was a few weeks ago, so things may have changed.

Originally, the signals at the crossing had two heads on the M1 mast and one on the M2. The new signal head is a two aspect signal. I've been hearing rumors that this addition of the second head is a sign of CN converting the signals from ABS to Absolute. Can anyone confirm this?
I saw that a couple weeks ago. I was almost wondering if that’s exactly what they were planning to do.

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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DaveO wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 8:32 pm
this new signal may become an absolute to be used to hold northbound trains so they don't stop at CN MAL
and block the road crossings.
That is exactly what I was thinking.

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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Since you guys seem to have missed it, the extra heads are due to CN switching every signal system in Michigan over to route signaling. The extra heads are needed to display the different aspects that do not apply with speed signaling.
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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

Unread post by DaveO »

But this is an automatic block signal(at present).
Is what you are saying is that all automatic block signals are being converted to multiple head?

edit to add:
I'm not sure what good route signaling would do there.
The Holly Sub between CN MAL 2.5 miles to the north and CN Moterm 10.5 miles to the south is entirely straight rail.

I will go back to what I think, and that is the signals at Opdyke are being converted to controlled signals like at Raven etc.
Time will tell.
Last edited by DaveO on Thu Oct 13, 2022 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

Unread post by SD80MAC »

DaveO wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 12:24 pm
But this is an automatic block signal(at present).
Is what you are saying is that all automatic block signals are being converted to multiple head?
Not necessarily. The aspects of route signaling differ greatly from speed signaling and are often more complex. This intermediate/ABS signal will now need an extra head to display the required aspects, being an advance signal to what I'm assuming is the next control point. That signal may have sufficed with one head when all it would show is clear/approach/stop, but with the new signal rules it might be required to display something like "Advance Approach Diverging" (just using an example) which you can't display with just one head.
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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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I think one issue here is that I don't believe northbound trains can get a signal from main 2 into the station track.
Amtrak can only access the Troy Station from main 1.
I find it strange that there has only been the one signal head northbound for main 2.
We will all find out, sounds like it will be sooner than later.

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

Unread post by Typhoon »

DaveO wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 12:24 pm
But this is an automatic block signal(at present).
Is what you are saying is that all automatic block signals are being converted to multiple head?

edit to add:
I'm not sure what good route signaling would do there.
The Holly Sub between CN MAL 2.5 miles to the north and CN Moterm 10.5 miles to the south is entirely straight rail.

I will go back to what I think, and that is the signals at Opdyke are being converted to controlled signals like at Raven etc.
Time will tell.
If there is not a power switch anywhere close, there is no reason to change the signal to an absolute.
Last edited by Typhoon on Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

Unread post by Manistique »

I thought CN converted the entire Holly to CTC a few years ago, extending CTC south past Yellow Cab, replacing ABS. Those signals at Opdyke don't just come on when a train is a block or two away but are turned on by the dispatcher when he routes the train, usually when one has permission to leave Pontiac Yard for a SB and at Milwaukee Junction or earlier for NB's.

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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Manistique wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:44 pm
Those signals at Opdyke don't just come on when a train is a block or two away but are turned on by the dispatcher when he routes the train,

Dispatchers don't "turn on" signals. They can do two things to absolute signals, they can code it to stop, or request a more favorable signal than stop. That is it. The signal system decides what signal will be displayed in the field if a signal is requested, based on the track conditions.

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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I've seen the signals there dark before, around midnight, not sure if that was normal or not.

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

Unread post by Manistique »

To clarify, since they went to CTC on the South Holly all the way to Detroit a few years ago (no one has chimed in on this statement yet and whether it is true or not), the signals are always on on the Holly. They are in three-step sequence. For instance, NB at Charing Cross they are what I would call approach (be prepared to stop in two signals), or a flashing yellow light, all the time unless the dispatcher "turns it on" to another signal when routing a train (that is what I clumsily called it earlier). The Opdyke signal is always what I called restrictive approach yellow (yellow over red on Main 1, yellow on Main 2) (be prepared to stop at the next signal) unless the dispatcher changes it when routing a train on the Holly. Not sure what MAL, the next signal, is NB. Probably red. Maybe green?

I too have seen the signals dark once in a while at Opdyke. I presume that they were doing maintenance or there was a problem. But 99% of the time they are Yellow over red/yellow on there 24 hours a day. Going SB both signals at Opdyke are always green. Which I think means that the SB signals at Charing Cross are flashing yellow then Birmingham solid yellow.

When it was ABS the signals all turned on when a train was approaching (probably two blocks away) then turned off when they passed the signal. Mike Burgette (spelling) the signal guy back when they changed it to CTC a few years ago said he preferred them to be always on so he could visually see if a bulb was burnt out when driving by. Maybe he was joking as maybe this is required for CTC.

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