A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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SD80MAC
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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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Manistique wrote:
Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:58 pm
When it was ABS the signals all turned on when a train was approaching (probably two blocks away) then turned off when they passed the signal. Mike Burgette (spelling) the signal guy back when they changed it to CTC a few years ago said he preferred them to be always on so he could visually see if a bulb was burnt out when driving by. Maybe he was joking as maybe this is required for CTC.
No, signals being approach-lit or not is up to the signal supervisor's preference. Mike's reasoning is sound.
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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

Unread post by Saturnalia »

There are so many misconceptions and false assumptions in this thread, I can't even begin to try to untangle them all for you...

Not trying to hate or anything, but yikes.
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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

Unread post by David Collins »

Saturnalia wrote:
Fri Oct 14, 2022 3:32 pm
There are so many misconceptions and false assumptions in this thread, I can't even begin to try to untangle them all for you...
Give us a few of your ideas, I don't mind learning new things.

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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Manistique wrote:
Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:58 pm
To clarify, since they went to CTC on the South Holly all the way to Detroit a few years ago (no one has chimed in on this statement yet and whether it is true or not), the signals are always on on the Holly. They are in three-step sequence. For instance, NB at Charing Cross they are what I would call approach (be prepared to stop in two signals), or a flashing yellow light, all the time unless the dispatcher "turns it on" to another signal when routing a train (that is what I clumsily called it earlier). The Opdyke signal is always what I called restrictive approach yellow (yellow over red on Main 1, yellow on Main 2) (be prepared to stop at the next signal) unless the dispatcher changes it when routing a train on the Holly. Not sure what MAL, the next signal, is NB. Probably red. Maybe green?

I too have seen the signals dark once in a while at Opdyke. I presume that they were doing maintenance or there was a problem. But 99% of the time they are Yellow over red/yellow on there 24 hours a day. Going SB both signals at Opdyke are always green. Which I think means that the SB signals at Charing Cross are flashing yellow then Birmingham solid yellow.

When it was ABS the signals all turned on when a train was approaching (probably two blocks away) then turned off when they passed the signal. Mike Burgette (spelling) the signal guy back when they changed it to CTC a few years ago said he preferred them to be always on so he could visually see if a bulb was burnt out when driving by. Maybe he was joking as maybe this is required for CTC.
CTC was north of Moterm, ABS was south of Moterm until 2016, when the entire Holly Sub became CTC. CTC meaning trains could run in either direction, on either track. Under ABS, trains needed a track authority to run the wrong direction on the wrong track.

Raven, is an odd Control Point being an absolute signal with no crossovers, diamond, etc.

Commonwealth, formerly on the Shoreline Sub was the same, until crossovers were installed and the Control Point became Avery.

Beck and Ash on the Mt Clemens Sub is a Control Point with no crossovers, diamond, etc, as well as Alice on the Flat Rock Sub. There may be more.

Is there a reason CN has Control Points that seem to be more functional as intermediates? The only recurring pattern is these "intermediate control points" seem to be the next block signal after a Control Point with a diamond or crossover. Maybe a dispatcher holdout point to eliminate blockage of crossings, Amtrak platforms, or other Control Points?

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

Unread post by Man o' War »

ConrailDetr​oit wrote:
Fri Oct 14, 2022 6:35 pm
Manistique wrote:
Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:58 pm
To clarify, since they went to CTC on the South Holly all the way to Detroit a few years ago (no one has chimed in on this statement yet and whether it is true or not), the signals are always on on the Holly. They are in three-step sequence. For instance, NB at Charing Cross they are what I would call approach (be prepared to stop in two signals), or a flashing yellow light, all the time unless the dispatcher "turns it on" to another signal when routing a train (that is what I clumsily called it earlier). The Opdyke signal is always what I called restrictive approach yellow (yellow over red on Main 1, yellow on Main 2) (be prepared to stop at the next signal) unless the dispatcher changes it when routing a train on the Holly. Not sure what MAL, the next signal, is NB. Probably red. Maybe green?

I too have seen the signals dark once in a while at Opdyke. I presume that they were doing maintenance or there was a problem. But 99% of the time they are Yellow over red/yellow on there 24 hours a day. Going SB both signals at Opdyke are always green. Which I think means that the SB signals at Charing Cross are flashing yellow then Birmingham solid yellow.

When it was ABS the signals all turned on when a train was approaching (probably two blocks away) then turned off when they passed the signal. Mike Burgette (spelling) the signal guy back when they changed it to CTC a few years ago said he preferred them to be always on so he could visually see if a bulb was burnt out when driving by. Maybe he was joking as maybe this is required for CTC.
CTC was north of Moterm, ABS was south of Moterm until 2016, when the entire Holly Sub became CTC. CTC meaning trains could run in either direction, on either track. Under ABS, trains needed a track authority to run the wrong direction on the wrong track.

Raven, is an odd Control Point being an absolute signal with no crossovers, diamond, etc.

Commonwealth, formerly on the Shoreline Sub was the same, until crossovers were installed and the Control Point became Avery.

Beck and Ash on the Mt Clemens Sub is a Control Point with no crossovers, diamond, etc, as well as Alice on the Flat Rock Sub. There may be more.

Is there a reason CN has Control Points that seem to be more functional as intermediates? The only recurring pattern is these "intermediate control points" seem to be the next block signal after a Control Point with a diamond or crossover. Maybe a dispatcher holdout point to eliminate blockage of crossings, Amtrak platforms, or other Control Points?
BECK and ASH on the Mount Clemens sub are Holdout signals, and I'm guessing that some of those you mention on other subs are Holdouts as well. These are absolute signals controlled by the dispatcher in order to hold trains so that they may not interfere with other switching moves, etc., further down the line until such time that said train is clear to proceed. These signals were modified with the advent of route signalling on the MTC in order to show flashing yellow over green, indicating advance approach/diverging.

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

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I spoke to a signal maintainer today who was leaving just after I arrived at the Opdyke Road crossing, he said the signals are going to become absolute sometime before the end of the year, it requires a bunch of modifications to the block signals from Raven to the new signal at Opdyke from what he told me, he said he could not tell me any more details as to what role the new signal would have or what the name of it will be.

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

Unread post by mach69 »

Wait. Why are CN moving to route signalling here in MI again?

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

Unread post by GTW6401 »

It's part of the new precision dispatching system that CN and Wabtec are working on. It's supposed to be fully operational by late 2023. The announcement on it was made back in June.

https://www.wabteccorp.com/newsroom/pre ... tch-system

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Re: A new absolute signal on the holly sub...?

Unread post by David Collins »

I can officially confirm that Milepost 22 on the Holly Subdivision IS now an absolute signal, cutover for M2’s new second head happened this morning, all sides are red, and it sounds like the signal crews are going to be taking the number plates down later today.
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Last edited by David Collins on Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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