Amtrak - 19 hour journey from Detroit to Chicago on 10/7/22

[justalurker66]

busstitution was attempted but there were none available that day. Probably due to the fall color tours going on now.

Does anyone expect bus companies to have buses and drivers ready to go at a moment's notice? Call the bus company around noon on a Friday and say "how many buses and drivers can you get to Jackson and when can you get them there?" The answer will not be pleasant. (Pick any town.)

The first response was "we can get a second train there in under four hours". Overestimating the ability of the relief train to be able to handle both consists. But the second train was the quickest available solution.

[chapmaja]

Many of the teacher/coaches prefer the use of charter coaches because they are more comfortable.
Safer? No.
We had coaches using charters/driving instead of our own school buses without proper authorization from the school district.
This was before the lack of school bus drivers was an issue in our district.
When notified the district did nothing because that made the well paid administrators life easier.

That was something else that they never used to have gotten away with. At one time, school bus drivers were employed by the school district and were members of a support employees union. The contract specified that the transportation was required to be provided by school transportation unless specific consent otherwise was granted by the union. When the school districts began outsourcing transportation services (as well as custodial and substitute teaching services), the control over school athletic transportation shifted and it seems like the "school" transportion is only used when it is available, and otherwise teams on on their own.

[CR900945]

Engine number was IDTX4613 for "Train from "Hell."

[Saturnalia]

Engine number was IDTX4613 for "Train from "Hell."

Of course it would be engine #13 in the group.

[DaveO]

A more detailed timeline has appeared https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/ ... ?4,5557892
Seems they put the consist of 351 behind 353 but didn't have a spare HEP cable to connect the trains.
Why they didn't dump 351 engine into the siding and then connect the train???
Some not nice allegations about the onsite supervisors ability to do the job.

I used the contact MDOT webpage to ask what they have done in regards to this fiasco.
I don't expect to get a true answer.

[Schteinkuh]

Seems they put the consist of 351 behind 353 but didn't have a spare HEP cable to connect the trains.
Why they didn't dump 351 engine into the siding and then connect the train???
Some not nice allegations about the onsite supervisors ability to do the job.

I can't stay quiet about this. Even if you dont have an extra HEP cable, one could easily be grabbed from the rear of 351 and used between the consists. Or better yet, set the engine out, combine the cars (with the newly available HEP cable!), tack the dead engine on the rear and get it to the shop. There is NO excuse for occupying dead cars with exposed sewage in the cabin area. ZERO. Lack of rear marker aside, don't those cars have a battery backup for when this happens? Additionally, having hoards of passengers walking all over the ROW on one of the busiest portions of the Chicago line is the real icing on the cake, and while NS is just as stupid sometimes I'm sure they weren't too pleased about that. Bottom line, you almost have to try to F up this bad. I know some of the AMTK guys are on these boards, and if there's anything wrong about my rant please feel free to chime in.

The overseeing management here not only dropped the ball, but they didn't even try to catch it. Several managers need to be canned for this, and whoever told the poor spokesperson to lie about it should go too. Can't blame the crew too much when managers were on site, but it looks bad for them regardless.

To quote Letterkenny: "F***ING EMBARRASSING."

[justalurker66]

I drove past the spot where the crew died (CP 502 next to the Ameristar Casino and Cline Ave). Not a long walk to the road but yes, NS is four tracks at that point (between CP 502 and CP 501) and to the north of the tracks is a freight yard. Not a long walk to the road but no passenger should ever have to abandon their train.

I wonder if the crew hit a red signal at CP 502 or if they simply chose that spot to stop because they were out of time? With green signals CP 506 and the Hammond-Whiting station was only minutes away with a truly safe place to get off the train.

And yes, I am one of the people saying the train should never have left Jackson without HEP to all occupied cars.

[DaveO]

I'm glad to say I received a reply from MDOT.
I don't like to directly quote such a message.

But it does seem MDOT has asked Amtrak to provide a detailed sequence of events, aka timeline.
Action would depend on what that turns up.

[Steve B]

I'm glad to say I received a reply from MDOT.
I don't like to directly quote such a message.

But it does seem MDOT has asked Amtrak to provide a detailed sequence of events, aka timeline.
Action would depend on what that turns up.

Why don't you want to quote any of it? Whatever they told you doesn't need protection from public airing.

[David Collins]

But it does seem MDOT has asked Amtrak to provide a detailed sequence of events, aka timeline.
Action would depend on what that turns up.

Can you possibly give us an example as to what would be some form of action by MDOT? I understand that most people don't know the full story/timeline yet, but what are some things that MDOT could do? Make amtrak pay a fine? Make Amtrak pay some sort of compensation for the passengers? What do you think would be right?

[DaveO]

It's the right thing to do. I worked for a public school district.
People will use your words against you.
The paraphrase is accurate.

[Steve B]

It's the right thing to do. I worked for a public school district.
People will use your words against you.
The paraphrase is accurate.

If that's how you feel, but I surmise that MDOT can survive the observations of a few railfans. I doubt that what they told you (and what we're paying them to disclose) is any more sensitive to exposure than responses to the media in a press conference.

[DaveO]

If you want a direct quote, you can always ask MDOT yourself.
It might help emphasize that there are people out there that care about what Michigan is getting from Amtrak besides a long string of failures.

[Doktor No]

Great and good retort DaveO! Remember the Tao...those who know do not speak, those who speak do not know. Where is that dead horse meme when you need it?
Oh and working for a class one for many years, I have seen such foolishness too many times. You either do your best to overcome dumb or just let their foolishness hang themselves. I've done both.
So it goes.

[justalurker66]

But it does seem MDOT has asked Amtrak to provide a detailed sequence of events, aka timeline.
Action would depend on what that turns up.

Such a timeline has been posted elsewhere. I am not sure of the source of the timeline but it seems to fit the facts known. As posted the timeline contained some personal attacks against an railroad employee. I would like to see an official version.

The "so what can MDOT do" question is the elephant in the room. If someone at Amtrak made poor decisions on their own or if they were following some sort of standard. In my opinion there were several decisions made that were unacceptable (continuing past Jackson without power to occupied passenger cars). If there are not written standards for minimum service level or guidance for whomever decided to let the train continue to move there needs to be standards.

The penalty phase is a big question. Other than refunds and vouchers for the passengers is there any penalty for Amtrak? Or is this level of failure statistically rare enough that it will barely be a blip in service? If you believe some rail fans the public execution of Amtrak leadership is required to pay for the crime committed. That is not quite reality.

[MiddleMI]

If this was an equipment issue, why are we even talking about what MDOT should or shouldn't have been doing? Does MDOT own the Chargers; are they legally liable for their usage? I guess it might be mildly interesting to discuss what kind of punitive measure MDOT could legally apply to Amtrak if that's even possible with whatever contract they have with them. But that discussion is mostly a sideshow, unless I've missed something major and they own the engines.

[DaveO]

Amtrak Chicago Shops are responsible for the maintenance. The Midwest Consortium led by Illinois owns the Chargers and Venture Cars.

[SD80MAC]

If this was an equipment issue, why are we even talking about what MDOT should or shouldn't have been doing? Does MDOT own the Chargers; are they legally liable for their usage? I guess it might be mildly interesting to discuss what kind of punitive measure MDOT could legally apply to Amtrak if that's even possible with whatever contract they have with them. But that discussion is mostly a sideshow, unless I've missed something major and they own the engines.

MDOT, IDOT, WIDOT, and MODOT own the Chargers and Venture cars. That's why none of them have AMTK reporting marks.

[PatAzo]

Amtrak's problems are systemic. It was conceived by politicians who vacillate between campaign dreams of "high speed" and eliminating funding. At its inception Amtrak's core purpose was the NEC and much of the rest of its services struggled to be relevant. Amtrak lacks a broad base of public support that would drive reliable services. If the Japanese Shinkansen's run late it is national news. Metra running on Class One track shows a 95%+ OTP. Amtrak shows the Wolverine service at less than 60% and in recent years less than 40%. Run Metra at less than 60% or less. The bosses would be hitting the street and government regulators would swoop down on the Class One's. Why does the Wolverine muddle along at less than 60%? Lack of public demand for something better.

If you have never worked for a company that does not make money it is difficult to understand what it is like. Logic goes out the window. There is an intense focus on the short term. Change for the better becomes difficult if not impossible because everyone is worried about what things cost. Amtrak's business model makes it destined to be unsuccessful. Good management becomes difficult to attract and hold. The good people you do have are worn down by the stupidity and the sense that in the end what they do doesn't really matter. Ever see half the café car tables occupied by train crew between station stops? They don't care that paying passengers can't use the tables and their bosses don't either. Boarding at CUS is a cluster who cares. Add on the decline in individual responsibility and work ethic creeping through the U.S. work force. You get a 19 hour trip to Chicago.

Fire a few people if they deserve it or not. Rattle the sabers about penalties. The politicians and incompetent managers will sleep well tonight feeling they did their jobs. Real change is a lot harder.

[MiddleMI]

If this was an equipment issue, why are we even talking about what MDOT should or shouldn't have been doing? Does MDOT own the Chargers; are they legally liable for their usage? I guess it might be mildly interesting to discuss what kind of punitive measure MDOT could legally apply to Amtrak if that's even possible with whatever contract they have with them. But that discussion is mostly a sideshow, unless I've missed something major and they own the engines.

MDOT, IDOT, WIDOT, and MODOT own the Chargers and Venture cars. That's why none of them have AMTK reporting marks.

Well, apparently I did, indeed, "miss something major."