CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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DaveO
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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Once again, 4 or so years ago, CN removed the rail just south of Collier Road to put the branch north of there out of service.

Steve B
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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Looking at some Ward's Auto Yearbooks, I see that the most recent Orion production peak was 2008 calendar year, 250,425 cars. That was about when CN stopped serving it. Things tanked quickly with the bankruptcy. Since it opened in fall 1983 the plant has apparently never operated near capacity for any sustained stretch. Hopefully with building pickups that will change.

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RoyalKingoftheRails
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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Mikeg1227 wrote:
Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:27 am
Kinda crazy but I work off Harmon near the Joslyn intersection and about 4:30 yesterday I heard the very distinct horn of a train in the distance. Don’t believe there’s any other activity in the area, any thought where that may have come from? Any possible work happening on that line!
Yeah I heard it too, I was up in Auburn Hills, and I heard a train horn in the distance around 1:30-1:30 that same day (2/21/2022) I thought it might have been a train going onto the local branch in Pontiac, I ran down there and didn't see any polished rails.

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RoyalKingoftheRails
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

Unread post by RoyalKingoftheRails »

I'm pretty familiar with the lake orion branch overall, going from Pontiac to Auburn Hills to Orion Township, I just have a question regarding the active portion of the line in Pontiac. Does anyone know how often they run the local trains up there, what day of the week and time they typically run a train up there? I'd like to try and catch one up there some time. Oh and what businesses currently use the line?

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AARR
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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It seems service to the lumber and metal scrap yard is about once a week usually (but not always) on Wednesday late afternoon/early evenings. When a center beam is delivered to the lumber yard, they usually do not wait a week to retrieve it but a day or two later.
james718194 wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:08 am
I'm pretty familiar with the lake orion branch overall, going from Pontiac to Auburn Hills to Orion Township, I just have a question regarding the active portion of the line in Pontiac. Does anyone know how often they run the local trains up there, what day of the week and time they typically run a train up there? I'd like to try and catch one up there some time. Oh and what businesses currently use the line?
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

railrod1949
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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AARR wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:19 am
It seems service to the lumber and metal scrap yard is about once a week usually (but not always) on Wednesday late afternoon/early evenings. When a center beam is delivered to the lumber yard, they usually do not wait a week to retrieve it but a day or two later.
james718194 wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:08 am
I'm pretty familiar with the lake orion branch overall, going from Pontiac to Auburn Hills to Orion Township, I just have a question regarding the active portion of the line in Pontiac. Does anyone know how often they run the local trains up there, what day of the week and time they typically run a train up there? I'd like to try and catch one up there some time. Oh and what businesses currently use the line?
Also, one more rail customer, the Metal Stamping plant Pontiac.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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railrod1949 wrote:
Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:30 am
Also, one more rail customer, the Metal Stamping plant Pontiac.
I have not seen any cars here since September :cry:
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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RoyalKingoftheRails
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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AARR wrote:
Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:58 am
railrod1949 wrote:
Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:30 am
Also, one more rail customer, the Metal Stamping plant Pontiac.
I have not seen any cars here since September :cry:
If the Metal Stamping plant does use the railroad, they must use it very rarely. I recently did a railroad crossing tour video of Columbia Avenue (which is basically an in-depth look at the crossing and the mechanics on it) which leads down down to that business and the tracks were pretty rusty. (Here's a link to the video to see it's condition as of December 2021 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1FojhR ... oftheRails) However CN hasn't seemed to have abandoned it because the signal bungalow light is still lit. They probably rarely have trains serve that business.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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Steve B wrote:
Wed Feb 23, 2022 6:26 pm
Looking at some Ward's Auto Yearbooks, I see that the most recent Orion production peak was 2008 calendar year, 250,425 cars. That was about when CN stopped serving it. Things tanked quickly with the bankruptcy. Since it opened in fall 1983 the plant has apparently never operated near capacity for any sustained stretch. Hopefully with building pickups that will change.
Orion was originally built to produce Cadillacs along with Hamtramck if I'm remembering correctly. Once GM decided they weren't gonna keep Buick City open (I've read a lot that suggests this was GM giving the finger to the UAW and calling their bluff) a lot of Buick production went to Orion with some to Hamtramck. Even before the bankruptcy things weren't that good at Orion. We were building 4 different vehicles (Buick Park Avenue Ultra, Buick LeSabre, Pontiac Bonnevile, and Oldsmobile Aurora) on 3 different platforms, it was a mess. I hired in, in 2000 and from 2000 - 2002 I don't recall many nights that we built production numbers. For a time there was rumors that Orion would be the next plant to get the axe but it didn't. Even when they brought the G6 and Malibu (second plant, most were built at Fairfax) to Orion, those weren't great selling vehicles and that didn't last very long as we got closer to going into bankruptcy. It'll be interesting to see what happens when they start producing trucks.

As for Pontiac Metal Center, they stamp a few of our parts for Flint (could be back up, I don't know), they stamp for Orion and now they are stamping Hummer EV stuff for Factory Zero (Hamtramck). Orion has been down since Septemeber-October so that's why there hasn't been any activity I would guess. With Factory Zero now running, you might see SOME but then again you may not. They just cancelled a manpower request for 350 people within days of making the announcement, rumors are related to the stuff going on in Ukraine and the supply of neon but nothing concrete.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

Unread post by Steve B »

Interestingly, in 2001 GTW filed to abandon and transfer to GM, but continue to serve the P&ON from MP 1.25 (end of track near Montcalm Ave.) to MP 2.75 at Belt Jct. Also included was the stub of the Romeo Sub to where it ended near Joslyn Rd. I don't know if all of that ultimately happened or has since been reversed. The FRA site lists GTW as the party of record for the Columbia Ave. crossing, MP 2.21.

The 2001 STB docket, AB-31 (Sub-No. 37X) stated, "GTW handles outbound finished steel and metal parts including assorted automotive vehicle stamped parts from GM, totaling approximately 2,000 carloads per year. GTW provides service once a day, six days a week, with a yard switcher locomotive and a two-person crew based in Pontiac. As part of a large scale improvement project at the plant, GM and GTW have entered into a contract to transfer the line and right-of way to GM. GM intends to relocate and reconfigure the line as necessary to facilitate improved operations and safety at its plant. Therefore, GTW seeks abandonment of the line and removal of its existing common carrier obligation on the line to enable GTW to transfer the line to GM upon consummation of the abandonment. GTW indicates that it will continue to provide service to GM via GTW’s existing rail lines and connections at Belt Junction with what will then be a GM owned line."

Orion Assembly when announced in Jan. 1980 was planned as a replacement for Pontiac's assembly plant in the city of Pontiac, but was gradually re-envisioned to build "luxury" front wheel drive cars. It began production in summer 1983 with the Olds 98 and Cadillac De Ville.

From old Ward's Auto Yearbooks, Orion Assembly production totals through 2017, which of course also reflected how busy the GTW branch was, until they stopped using it.

Model years:

1984 67,900
1985 236,027
1986 248,929
1987 212,679
1988 203,867
1989 194,022
1990 238,984
1991 202,903
1992 189,912
1993 151,405

Calendar years:

1993 128,905
1994 233,227
1995 194,747
1996 170,103
1997 207,321
1998 180,506
1999 143,206
2000 223,497
2001 150,659
2002 121,354
2003 104,804
2004 74,870
2005 157,414
2006 186,899
2007 153,416
2008 250,425
2009 107,146
2010 0
2011 40,998
2012 155,275
2013 147,684
2014 152,680
2015 102,677
2016 80,655
2017 64,121

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AARR
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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Thank you for the good information, SteveB.
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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AARR wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:55 am
Thank you for the good information, SteveB.
You're welcome. Some of the land purchase options for Orion were made by GTW on behalf of GM. Residents near the old airport at the site were offered from $6,000 to $8,000 an acre by GTW. The plant's peak was really in its first few years, no sustained streak of really busy years since.

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AARR
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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Also, for those that like to know number of carloads, about 70% of vehicles are shipped by railroads.
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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RoyalKingoftheRails
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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GTW Dude wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:49 pm
bnsfben wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:42 pm
The last train to run all the way to Orion Yard was the circus train in November 2016. Yarding that train at Orion Yard must have been interesting to see.
i know i have it buried somewhere but i have a video from around 2010-2011 of a GTW unit in original paint going across the massive diagonal intersection at Joslyn which is right on the border of Lake Orion and Auburn Hills. I recall going to see the circus train in Orion yard with my Dad and Grandfather when I was little and there was less security so we could pull up to the yard to see what was all the commotion.
Did you ever happen to find that video? I'd love to see it if you've got it posted anywhere.

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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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RoyalKingoftheRails wrote:
Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:14 am
GTW Dude wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:49 pm
bnsfben wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:42 pm
The last train to run all the way to Orion Yard was the circus train in November 2016. Yarding that train at Orion Yard must have been interesting to see.
i know i have it buried somewhere but i have a video from around 2010-2011 of a GTW unit in original paint going across the massive diagonal intersection at Joslyn which is right on the border of Lake Orion and Auburn Hills. I recall going to see the circus train in Orion yard with my Dad and Grandfather when I was little and there was less security so we could pull up to the yard to see what was all the commotion.
Did you ever happen to find that video? I'd love to see it if you've got it posted anywhere.
I think I know where to find it there’s only two problems.

One: My mother took the video with an IPhone 4 (not the worst quality it was probably better than usual for a cell phone at the time) but over the years it’s been transferred to different hard drives and such and I don’t believe she still has it on her latest phone. I’ll have to check though because she really doesn’t go Willy-nilly on deleting things on the phone especially photos.

Two: every single app and photo she had on her phone were backed up on her IMac. I want to say around 2014 or 2015 the charger for it broke and being unable to charge the computer it hasn’t been powered up for the better half of the last decade leaving a ton of personal photos trapped on the hard drive. however, I can almost guarantee it has been backed up on her PC.

While I haven’t seen a train even on the Pontiac Spur in about 8 years I do have video sent to me of I want to say GTW 5832 (?) In original paint working the job around late 2020 iirc. I can upload it to YT if you’d like.

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AARR
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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The last time I saw the Belt Line getting switched was last August/September. They pulled 6-7 cars from the stamping plant and another 7-8 from the scrap yard. Since then I will see about a car a week at Bolyard and several cars at the scrap yard but I am told they get switched late in the afternoon now. I have seen no activity at the stamping plant since last August/September.
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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RoyalKingoftheRails
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

Unread post by RoyalKingoftheRails »

GTW Dude wrote:
Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:16 pm
RoyalKingoftheRails wrote:
Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:14 am
GTW Dude wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:49 pm


i know i have it buried somewhere but i have a video from around 2010-2011 of a GTW unit in original paint going across the massive diagonal intersection at Joslyn which is right on the border of Lake Orion and Auburn Hills. I recall going to see the circus train in Orion yard with my Dad and Grandfather when I was little and there was less security so we could pull up to the yard to see what was all the commotion.
Did you ever happen to find that video? I'd love to see it if you've got it posted anywhere.
I think I know where to find it there’s only two problems.

One: My mother took the video with an IPhone 4 (not the worst quality it was probably better than usual for a cell phone at the time) but over the years it’s been transferred to different hard drives and such and I don’t believe she still has it on her latest phone. I’ll have to check though because she really doesn’t go Willy-nilly on deleting things on the phone especially photos.

Two: every single app and photo she had on her phone were backed up on her IMac. I want to say around 2014 or 2015 the charger for it broke and being unable to charge the computer it hasn’t been powered up for the better half of the last decade leaving a ton of personal photos trapped on the hard drive. however, I can almost guarantee it has been backed up on her PC.

While I haven’t seen a train even on the Pontiac Spur in about 8 years I do have video sent to me of I want to say GTW 5832 (?) In original paint working the job around late 2020 iirc. I can upload it to YT if you’d like.
Yeah if you could I would love to see it, I'm obsessed with that line. I'm really wanting to catching something up there at some point. If you want to provide me a link to it when you upload it, feel free. Thanks for the reply.

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RoyalKingoftheRails
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

Unread post by RoyalKingoftheRails »

AARR wrote:
Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:28 pm
The last time I saw the Belt Line getting switched was last August/September. They pulled 6-7 cars from the stamping plant and another 7-8 from the scrap yard. Since then I will see about a car a week at Bolyard and several cars at the scrap yard but I am told they get switched late in the afternoon now. I have seen no activity at the stamping plant since last August/September.
Yeah that would make sense, I do railroad crossing tours on my channel and I recently uploaded Columbia Avenue's crossing which leads down to the stamping plant, the tracks were pretty rusty so they must not have seen a train in a long time.

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RoyalKingoftheRails
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

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Drove by Giddings Road today, Exempt signs have been put up. Only on this road though, Silverbell and the other crossings south haven't been touched.
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Re: CN Lake Orion Sub - The end finally???

Unread post by Beemer »

RKR...
These tracks run through my stomping grounds. Both of the Joslyn Road track crossings (MP 5.56 & 5.84), north of the Brown/Joslyn intersection, are tagged with the yellow exempt signs (North and South bound on Joslyn). In addition, there are smaller black and white exempt signs just before each of the crossings.

Joslyn MP 5.56 (South Bound).JPG
Joslyn MP 5.56 (North Bound).JPG

The tracks at Silverbell are paved over. Also, as DaveO mentioned earlier, the track south of Collier road is blocked from north bound rail traffic.

Collier MP 3.55 (South of Collier Rd.).JPG

Per the Township gubment (records/minutes), this track will remain until GM decides its use is no longer wanted. I pass the Orion plant regularly. South of the Orion yard/Giddings crossing, there is a fence across the tracks on the GM property, viewable from the south side of the Silverbell Road bridge.

Have a good day, everyone!

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