Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

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Dan Cluley
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by Dan Cluley »

I agree that 505 does not work Lansing.

As far as scheduling, some of these are pretty consistent.

These are times I would expect trains at Durand:

149 in the early morning. Often will run just ahead or after Amtrak 365.

Amtrak 365 is due at Durand about 8 am.

502 & 503 are mid to late afternoon.

Amtrak 364 is scheduled for Durand around 9:30 pm.

116 & 391 are typically between 10-Midnight.

148 should be somewhere between 2-5 am

505 will work Flint & Durand around that same time.

A year ago, 348, 394 & 399 we're running overnight, with the other M trains running mid morning to late afternoon, but I'm not sure that is still current.

For other locations, Lansing to Durand takes about an hour, and Durand to Pontiac is a little over an hour.
Last edited by Dan Cluley on Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by Todd_F »

Evan wrote:Here's a fairly updated list with current train ID's: *indicates notes for aforementioned trains
M34841 - Winnipeg Symington Yard, Sarnia ON - Daily. *Train sometimes originates at Fon Do Lac, WI.
M39161 - Lang yard, Toledo, OH - Kirk Yard, Gary IN - Daily.
M39491 - Kirk yard, Gary, IN - Sarnia, Ontario, Canada. Daily.
M39561 - Battle Creek MI - BNSF Eola, this train does NOT run daily anymore, and actually runs as an extra when it does. X39561 would be proper ID.
M39671 - Memphis, TN - MacMillian yard, Toronto, ON - Daily.
M39731 - Toronto MacMillian yard - Kirk yard, Gary IN. Daily *Ultimately the train does run thru to Memphis, but under a different symbol.
M39891 - Kirk Yard, Gary IN - Toronto Macmillian yard - Daily. *replaces M332 and M370 trains, though an occasional X332 does run.
M39931 - Toronto Macmillian yard - Salem Illinois - daily. *Goes to UP at Salem, unsure of where it terminates on UP.
Q11691 - Homewood, Illinois (Chicago Intermodal) - Flat Rock, MI. Daily. *Works Pontiac and Moterm Intermodal in Ferndale, MI. Daily.
Q14891 - Homewood, Illinois (Chicago Intermodal) - Port of Montreal. Daily. *Works Brampton Intermodal before continuing on.
Q14921 - Port of Montreal - Brampton Intermodal Terminal. *Train runs from BIT to Chicago Intermodal in Homewood, Illinois. Daily. *Sometimes runs as Q14931 out of Brampton.
L50131 - Sarnia, Ontario, Canada - Battle Creek, MI - *Works Flint. Occasionally will work Durand and Lansing.
L50261 - Battle Creek, MI - Lang Yard, Toledo, OH - Daily - *Works Lansing, Durand(sometimes skips work here) and Pontiac.
L50361 - Flat Rock, MI - Battle Creek, MI - Daily - *Train sometimes terminates at Pontiac. When it continues on, train works Lansing.
L50461 - Port Huron - Flint, MI - Daily. *I believe this is a turn job. Not 100% on that.
L50531 - Sarnia, Ontario, Canada - Battle Creek, MI - Daily. *Works Flint, Durand, and Battle Creek. Don't think it works Lansing, but not 100%.
Additional info or questions welcome.
I think between you and Dan, this list is about as currently accurate as anyone can get. Thanks guys!

Question, Evan - do you know where 764 specifically originates? Which Wyoming Powder River Basin mine?
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by florida581 »

Evan wrote:Here's a fairly updated list with current train ID's: *indicates notes for aforementioned trains
M34841 - Winnipeg Symington Yard, Sarnia ON - Daily. *Train sometimes originates at Fon Do Lac, WI.
M39161 - Lang yard, Toledo, OH - Kirk Yard, Gary IN - Daily.
M39491 - Kirk yard, Gary, IN - Sarnia, Ontario, Canada. Daily.
M39561 - Battle Creek MI - BNSF Eola, this train does NOT run daily anymore, and actually runs as an extra when it does. X39561 would be proper ID.
M39671 - Memphis, TN - MacMillian yard, Toronto, ON - Daily.
M39731 - Toronto MacMillian yard - Kirk yard, Gary IN. Daily *Ultimately the train does run thru to Memphis, but under a different symbol.
M39891 - Kirk Yard, Gary IN - Toronto Macmillian yard - Daily. *replaces M332 and M370 trains, though an occasional X332 does run.
M39931 - Toronto Macmillian yard - Salem Illinois - daily. *Goes to UP at Salem, unsure of where it terminates on UP.
Q11691 - Homewood, Illinois (Chicago Intermodal) - Flat Rock, MI. Daily. *Works Pontiac and Moterm Intermodal in Ferndale, MI. Daily.
Q14891 - Homewood, Illinois (Chicago Intermodal) - Port of Montreal. Daily. *Works Brampton Intermodal before continuing on.
Q14921 - Port of Montreal - Brampton Intermodal Terminal. *Train runs from BIT to Chicago Intermodal in Homewood, Illinois. Daily. *Sometimes runs as Q14931 out of Brampton.
L50131 - Sarnia, Ontario, Canada - Battle Creek, MI - *Works Flint. Occasionally will work Durand and Lansing.
L50261 - Battle Creek, MI - Lang Yard, Toledo, OH - Daily - *Works Lansing, Durand(sometimes skips work here) and Pontiac.
L50361 - Flat Rock, MI - Battle Creek, MI - Daily - *Train sometimes terminates at Pontiac. When it continues on, train works Lansing.
L50461 - Port Huron - Flint, MI - Daily. *I believe this is a turn job. Not 100% on that.
L50531 - Sarnia, Ontario, Canada - Battle Creek, MI - Daily. *Works Flint, Durand, and Battle Creek. Don't think it works Lansing, but not 100%.
Additional info or questions welcome.
Additional info:

The Chicago - Memphis leg of M39731 is A49791.

M39931 becomes L59991 in Champaign. Upon reaching Salem, it becomes UP MTTPB to Pine Bluff, AR. As for the northbound counterpart, UP QNLTT out of North Little Rock, AR becomes CN L59891 in Salem. It then becomes A49891 in Champaign--bound for Kirk Yard.

So L50361 took the place of A45161? Does the A45161 symbol still exist between Battle Creek and Gibson, IN?

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by Evan »

florida581 wrote:
Evan wrote:Here's a fairly updated list with current train ID's: *indicates notes for aforementioned trains
M34841 - Winnipeg Symington Yard, Sarnia ON - Daily. *Train sometimes originates at Fon Do Lac, WI.
M39161 - Lang yard, Toledo, OH - Kirk Yard, Gary IN - Daily.
M39491 - Kirk yard, Gary, IN - Toronto MacMillian yard, Canada. Daily.
M39561 - Battle Creek MI - BNSF Eola, this train does NOT run daily anymore, and actually runs as an extra when it does. X39561 would be proper ID.
M39671 - Memphis, TN - MacMillian yard, Toronto, ON - Daily.
M39731 - Toronto MacMillian yard - Kirk yard, Gary IN. Daily *Ultimately the train does run thru to Memphis, but under a different symbol.
M39891 - Kirk Yard, Gary IN - Toronto Macmillian yard - Daily. *replaces M332 and M370 trains, though an occasional X332 does run.
M39931 - Toronto Macmillian yard - Salem Illinois - daily. *Goes to UP at Salem, unsure of where it terminates on UP.
Q11691 - Homewood, Illinois (Chicago Intermodal) - Flat Rock, MI. Daily. *Works Pontiac and Moterm Intermodal in Ferndale, MI. Daily.
Q14891 - Homewood, Illinois (Chicago Intermodal) - Port of Montreal. Daily. *Works Brampton Intermodal before continuing on.
Q14921 - Port of Montreal - Brampton Intermodal Terminal. *Train runs from BIT to Chicago Intermodal in Homewood, Illinois. Daily. *Sometimes runs as Q14931 out of Brampton.
L50131 - Sarnia, Ontario, Canada - Battle Creek, MI - *Works Flint. Occasionally will work Durand and Lansing.
L50261 - Battle Creek, MI - Lang Yard, Toledo, OH - Daily - *Works Lansing, Durand(sometimes skips work here) and Pontiac.
L50361 - Flat Rock, MI - Battle Creek, MI - Daily - *Train sometimes terminates at Pontiac. When it continues on, train works Lansing.
L50461 - Port Huron - Flint, MI - Daily. *I believe this is a turn job. Not 100% on that.
L50531 - Sarnia, Ontario, Canada - Battle Creek, MI - Daily. *Works Flint, Durand, and Battle Creek. Don't think it works Lansing, but not 100%.
Additional info or questions welcome.
Additional info:

The Chicago - Memphis leg of M39731 is A49791.

M39931 becomes L59991 in Champaign. Upon reaching Salem, it becomes UP MTTPB to Pine Bluff, AR. As for the northbound counterpart, UP QNLTT out of North Little Rock, AR becomes CN L59891 in Salem. It then becomes A49891 in Champaign--bound for Kirk Yard.

So L50361 took the place of A45161? Does the A45161 symbol still exist between Battle Creek and Gibson, IN?
A45161 runs out of Battle Creek, yes. Thanks for pointing that out.
Also a M37161 runs out of Battle Creek also. That also goes to the UP and that is also a train that goes to Salem.

Todd: C76491 runs from Powder River Basin, Wyoming to the BNSF in Chicago. It's handed off to the CN.
C76491 is Chicago (Not sure where it's handed off to CN) - Durand, MI. Once at Durand, it's interchanged to the HESR who ultimately takes it to Consumers Power in Essexville, MI.

blueheron13
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by blueheron13 »

Great info, everyone!

Couple of questions:
1. Did M371 just recently stop running? GreatLakesRailfan and Dan Cluley both have identified 371's in the updates threads this summer.
2. I thought L504 was the train that runs on the HR track and goes to the paper mills. Does is also go to Flint? Related to this, I had asked Kyle Korienek on Flickr which train interchanges with LIRR in Lapeer, and he stated it was L524, which the same train that works Mt. Clemens. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/kylekorie ... 879511884/)
So which local actually switches the east end of the Flint Sub (Port Huron to Flint): 504 or 524 or both on occasion?

Thanks!
Evan wrote:
florida581 wrote:
Evan wrote:Here's a fairly updated list with current train ID's: *indicates notes for aforementioned trains
M34841 - Winnipeg Symington Yard, Sarnia ON - Daily. *Train sometimes originates at Fon Do Lac, WI.
M39161 - Lang yard, Toledo, OH - Kirk Yard, Gary IN - Daily.
M39491 - Kirk yard, Gary, IN - Toronto MacMillian yard, Canada. Daily.
M39561 - Battle Creek MI - BNSF Eola, this train does NOT run daily anymore, and actually runs as an extra when it does. X39561 would be proper ID.
M39671 - Memphis, TN - MacMillian yard, Toronto, ON - Daily.
M39731 - Toronto MacMillian yard - Kirk yard, Gary IN. Daily *Ultimately the train does run thru to Memphis, but under a different symbol.
M39891 - Kirk Yard, Gary IN - Toronto Macmillian yard - Daily. *replaces M332 and M370 trains, though an occasional X332 does run.
M39931 - Toronto Macmillian yard - Salem Illinois - daily. *Goes to UP at Salem, unsure of where it terminates on UP.
Q11691 - Homewood, Illinois (Chicago Intermodal) - Flat Rock, MI. Daily. *Works Pontiac and Moterm Intermodal in Ferndale, MI. Daily.
Q14891 - Homewood, Illinois (Chicago Intermodal) - Port of Montreal. Daily. *Works Brampton Intermodal before continuing on.
Q14921 - Port of Montreal - Brampton Intermodal Terminal. *Train runs from BIT to Chicago Intermodal in Homewood, Illinois. Daily. *Sometimes runs as Q14931 out of Brampton.
L50131 - Sarnia, Ontario, Canada - Battle Creek, MI - *Works Flint. Occasionally will work Durand and Lansing.
L50261 - Battle Creek, MI - Lang Yard, Toledo, OH - Daily - *Works Lansing, Durand(sometimes skips work here) and Pontiac.
L50361 - Flat Rock, MI - Battle Creek, MI - Daily - *Train sometimes terminates at Pontiac. When it continues on, train works Lansing.
L50461 - Port Huron - Flint, MI - Daily. *I believe this is a turn job. Not 100% on that.
L50531 - Sarnia, Ontario, Canada - Battle Creek, MI - Daily. *Works Flint, Durand, and Battle Creek. Don't think it works Lansing, but not 100%.
Additional info or questions welcome.
Additional info:

The Chicago - Memphis leg of M39731 is A49791.

M39931 becomes L59991 in Champaign. Upon reaching Salem, it becomes UP MTTPB to Pine Bluff, AR. As for the northbound counterpart, UP QNLTT out of North Little Rock, AR becomes CN L59891 in Salem. It then becomes A49891 in Champaign--bound for Kirk Yard.

So L50361 took the place of A45161? Does the A45161 symbol still exist between Battle Creek and Gibson, IN?
A45161 runs out of Battle Creek, yes. Thanks for pointing that out.
Also a M37161 runs out of Battle Creek also. That also goes to the UP and that is also a train that goes to Salem.

Todd: C76491 runs from Powder River Basin, Wyoming to the BNSF in Chicago. It's handed off to the CN.
C76491 is Chicago (Not sure where it's handed off to CN) - Durand, MI. Once at Durand, it's interchanged to the HESR who ultimately takes it to Consumers Power in Essexville, MI.
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by GreatLakesRailfan »

Evan will probably correct me if I'm wrong, but 504 seems to be the local symbol used in Port Huron, regardless of where the train is going. The PH to Flint local would be the train interchanging with the railroad in Lapeer. I think I've seen (heard) the 504 symbol used to move trains through the tunnel to Sarnia after the arriving crew died before Sarnia could take the train as well.

I'm surprised to see the Flint to PH local is based out of PH now. In the past, I thought it was based out of Flint, and didn't always come all the way to PH.
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by Evan »

Appears I forgot a couple trains.
M32391 - Kirk Yard, Gary Indiana - Symmington Yard, Winnipeg Manitoba, Canada. *Daily. Detouring to relieve congestion out in Western Canada.
M32251 - Symmington Yard, Winnipeg Manitoba, Canada - Battle Creek, MI - * Daily. Detouring to relieve congestion out in Western Canada.
Q13761 = Detroit Intermodal (Moterm) - Brampton Intermodal Facility. Not sure if daily or not, haven't been able to find out.
Q13831 - Brampton Intermodal Facility - Detroit Intermodal (Moterm). Not sure if daily or not, haven't been able to find out.

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by Evan »

GreatLakesRailfan wrote:Evan will probably correct me if I'm wrong, but 504 seems to be the local symbol used in Port Huron, regardless of where the train is going. The PH to Flint local would be the train interchanging with the railroad in Lapeer. I think I've seen (heard) the 504 symbol used to move trains through the tunnel to Sarnia after the arriving crew died before Sarnia could take the train as well.

I'm surprised to see the Flint to PH local is based out of PH now. In the past, I thought it was based out of Flint, and didn't always come all the way to PH.
I'm not exactly sure how that works. 504 does work Dunn Paper, but I'm not sure if these are two different locals or not.

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by blueheron13 »

Evan wrote:Appears I forgot a couple trains.
M32391 - Kirk Yard, Gary Indiana - Symmington Yard, Winnipeg Manitoba, Canada. *Daily. Detouring to relieve congestion out in Western Canada.
M32251 - Symmington Yard, Winnipeg Manitoba, Canada - Battle Creek, MI - * Daily. Detouring to relieve congestion out in Western Canada.
Q13761 = Detroit Intermodal (Moterm) - Brampton Intermodal Facility. Not sure if daily or not, haven't been able to find out.
Q13831 - Brampton Intermodal Facility - Detroit Intermodal (Moterm). Not sure if daily or not, haven't been able to find out.
Would Q137 and Q138 go through Milwaukee Junction just like the L533 intermodal does? If so, I should run across one sooner or later.
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by RoyalKingoftheRails »

Does anyone know the symbol for a freight train on the Holly sub that carries Coil Cars and Autoracks? I've been out a couple late evenings (9 pm - 10 pm) and I've seen an interesting freight carrying only those coil cars and autoracks. I don't know if it would be A450 or some other symbol. Has anyone else seen it?

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by LansingRailFan »

RoyalKingoftheRails wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:44 pm
Does anyone know the symbol for a freight train on the Holly sub that carries Coil Cars and Autoracks? I've been out a couple late evenings (9 pm - 10 pm) and I've seen an interesting freight carrying only those coil cars and autoracks. I don't know if it would be A450 or some other symbol. Has anyone else seen it?
Where and when and which direction are you seeing it?

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by ~Z~ »

LansingRailFan wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:52 pm
RoyalKingoftheRails wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:44 pm
Does anyone know the symbol for a freight train on the Holly sub that carries Coil Cars and Autoracks? I've been out a couple late evenings (9 pm - 10 pm) and I've seen an interesting freight carrying only those coil cars and autoracks. I don't know if it would be A450 or some other symbol. Has anyone else seen it?
Where and when and which direction are you seeing it?
Also the locomotive number and/or a couple of freight car numbers are handy for some of those on here that are able to look up the train symbol based on that information.
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by Manistique »

RoyalKingoftheRails wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:44 pm
Does anyone know the symbol for a freight train on the Holly sub that carries Coil Cars and Autoracks? I've been out a couple late evenings (9 pm - 10 pm) and I've seen an interesting freight carrying only those coil cars and autoracks. I don't know if it would be A450 or some other symbol. Has anyone else seen it?
I have been presuming it is 450. It often has more than just steel and racks. Its schedule is not all that regular, though. I can tell when it is going by the house as the house really rattles with the heavy steel cars on it.

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by redside20 »

Whatever happened to M356? and the Subaru express otherwise known as E274?
Exit stage left

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by David Lang »

Not sure where the information is coming from, but I live almost right on the Holly Sub and there has never been a Q137/Q138 to and from Moterm "unless" it travels up and down the Mt. Clemens Sub, which I have never heard these symbols there either. Unless these are brand new trains, there is no such symbol.

The only intermodal symbol on the Holly other than 507 and 508 (not purely intermodal anymore) have been extra symbols such as 117, 119, and 189. 137 and 138 do not exist. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by Man o' War »

David Lang wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:59 pm
Not sure where the information is coming from, but I live almost right on the Holly Sub and there has never been a Q137/Q138 to and from Moterm "unless" it travels up and down the Mt. Clemens Sub, which I have never heard these symbols there either. Unless these are brand new trains, there is no such symbol.

The only intermodal symbol on the Holly other than 507 and 508 (not purely intermodal anymore) have been extra symbols such as 117, 119, and 189. 137 and 138 do not exist. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

David Lang
David, you will notice that the posts regarding Q137/Q138 were from 2017. Those trains did indeed run on the MTC sub, and ran only for a short time - as needed. No intermodal on the MTC - for the moment...

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by bnsfben »

redside20 wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:05 pm
Whatever happened to M356? and the Subaru express otherwise known as E274?
Subaru express? Where did that saying come from and why was the train called that?

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by David Lang »

Didn't even notice the 2017 date Man o' War, sorry about that.

Well...I was right about no Q137/138 now, but apparently to your point, there were a few in 2017.

Thanks.

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