Lansing NS "South Yard"

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MiddleMI
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Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by MiddleMI »

Does anyone know about the former Norfolk Southern South Yard (formally called Lansing Yard) in Lansing of their Lansing Secondary line? Despite being very much inside the city, it's a pretty low-density, out-of-the-way neighborhood at the bottom of a shallow valley/floodplain created by the slow-moving Sycamore Creek which winds through Lansing's southeast side just north of Cavanaugh Road. Immediately across the Cavanaugh is CATA's (Lansing's public transit authority) large bus depot and headquarters. To the west is the popular and large Hawk Island County Park.

The trackage is currently Lansing and Jackson Railroad. I think this may have been a Michigan Central branch and then a NS. Anyway, does anyone from the area know the history behind the yard like when it was built, when most of it was torn up, if it's used by JAIL for anything these days? I believe this was probably one of the longest yards in the city of Lansing proper, though there appear to be other yards within the city proper which had more capacity. It appears there may be two tracks off the mainline left for storage or something. Any old pictures?

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by Dan Cluley »

My understanding is that in the Michigan Central/New York Central days, South Yard was the main yard for Lansing. There was also Saginaw Yard on the west side of town on the Belt Line trackage that switched cars for the industries (mostly GM) on that side of town. The engine & caboose servicing facilities were up on the north side of town at the Gier st roundhouse.

At some point after the switch from steam to diesel the Gier st facilities were abandoned and a single stall engine shed was built on the south side of Cavanaugh & engines were fueled & sanded there.

Penn Central became part of Conrail in '76 and about that time the line north from Lansing to Bay City was abandoned.
I do not know, but suspect that this is about the time that they stopped using South Yard.
I do know that by the mid-80s all switching was being done at Saginaw Yard on the westside.

Since the mid 80s, the only use I've seen of South Yard, was some occassional long term car storage, a couple of visits by the Ringling Bros circus train (1990 & 91) and possibly some maintance of way car storage.

I don't remember exactly when the yard office was torn down, and the rest of the tracks pulled up, but I think it was fairly soon after NS took over in 1999.

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by MiddleMI »

Thanks. I see looking through the galleries here...

Looking southeast:

Image

Looking north (1965 and 2007):

Image

Larger version of the 1965 picture:

Image

BTW, since I'm asking about Lansing railroad history, I have another question concerning a more recent part of that history. I remember going as a child in the early 90's to Riverfront Park before they took out the tracks on the old Lansing Transit Railway bridge crossing the Grand River. But, my memory also vaguely remembers the tracks still being along the riverfront in the park (this short railway use to supply coal to the old Ottawa Street Station power plant downtown running off the old Michigan Central/Norfolk Southern main branch east of the river). I'm wondering if this is a real memory or just a vivid imagination? Also, I know the power station was formally decommissioned in 1992, but does anyone remember how much longer before then they'd stopped coal shipments via the Lansing Transit Railway?

Image

Anyway, the trackage even from the bridge has been gone for many years now, and it was converted to pedestrian use. The city had built a very narrow pedestrian bridge attached directly to the old railbridge, but it would become chocked during big events in the park. It used to scare the hell out of me as a child. lol Eventually, they took up the rails on the actual railbridge and now almost everyone uses that half of the bridge. It's the only part of the old railway still in existence particularly after the Shiawassee Street bridge was redone and more recently the entire reconstruction of the old power plant and neighboring coal dump.

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by GTWFRED »

Busy yard in the 60's.

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by Dan Cluley »

Sometime after the 1965 photo, they tore down that wood yard office, and replaced it with the two story cement block one that I remember. The new one was in roughly the same location.


I have a picture of a Conrail train in Riverfront park that was taken in the summer of 1987 that I will try to scan in the next few days. I know I saw them on that line at least once or twice after that, probably in '88 or '89. Don't remember exactly when the tracks were pulled up, but early '90s seems reasonable.

LansingTransitRyMap1990.gif
The blue line at left is the current line through town. This was originally the Michigan Central.

The red line going north, and the green headed south was originally the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern. The green portion followed the river south all the way to the GTW crossing by the old REO plant. This line was torn up in the mid-70s and is the right of way for the original part of the Lansing River Trail.
The red portion went north through Old Town and connects to the MC line at Turner st. The portion from Turner st. to the scrap dealer in Old town is still in existence but isn't in use currently.

The red portion that crosses the river was used to get from the LS&MS line to the Ottawa st power plant until the late 80s or early 90s and is the trackage you remember in the park.

I don't know when the black portion that ran east-west was removed, but it was definitely gone by the mid 80s. I suspect it became redundant once the MC & the LS&MS were both absorbed into the NYC, but there may have still been industries along that stretch.

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by MiddleMI »

Thanks. I didn't say it, but I also vaguely remember hearing or seeing trains in the park, though I've considered it may have been a false memory. But, I do remember walking on the the tracks there. I'm asking all this because I was little and we moved to Lansing in 1990, which would have been around the time the operations were winding down if they already hadn't. I spent alot of time in the park, and there were plenty of little quirky pieces of history still present even with all of the "urban renewal" that gone along on the riverfront in the 60's to the early 90's.

BTW, here is the old Shiasswee Street Bridge in the early 80's, I believe it was torn down in something like '95 ot '96. You can clearly see the old Lansing Transit Railway track to Ottawa Street station rounding its way toward the plant:

Image

As you can see, unlike the new bridge which is an arch, this was a two or three part bridge with the approaching starting right at the riverbank on the westbank allowing the train to come right through it. The approach of the current bridge almost begins at Grand Avenue.

BTW, never been over there, but I hear you can still make out part of the wye (south branch) up on the dead-end Truck Court, a tiny street into a little industrial/warehouse area that isn't even signed. The northern part was totally non-existent and was taken up whenever they widened and tuck Saginaw Street beneath the old Michigan Central track.

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by Dan Cluley »

I've never poked around where the wye was, but I wouldn't be surprised if you can follow the line. Just looking at the aerial view on google maps, you can see pretty much where it should be. The parking lot at the east end of Truck ct has an angle/curve at the south edge that was probably along side the tracks.

I assume the line ran just south of the Quality Dairy building, as there are several long narrow strips of pavement in that part of their parking lot, and it lines up pretty well with the path leading to the bridge across the river.

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by MiddleMI »

It looks like it very well might have come through the south end of the parking lot, or maybe even the strip between their property and AutoZones. But, as someone who frequents that QD quite often, the light strip is simply them putting down concrete now quite a few years ago because this is where they load stuff into the stores from the semi trucks. The semis had basically destroyed this little alley/driveway.

Now you've got me curious, though. I'm going to look at some old maps of this area, and then look up on the city website and see when the QD was built to see if I can track down when they tore up the lines and what was there when they were torn down. The AutoZone is a fairly recent addition (there was a decrepit auto shop property there for years before that I remember at the corner of Erie and Cedar.

EDIT: Looks like the QD was built in 1964 (remolded in 1978), so it had to have been there when the tracks came through. Now, time to look at some old maps. Some old Sanborn Maps show an ironworks on the site of the QD, though, I'm not sure the date of the maps. Looks like a double-track, in fact, right before it goes back to a single track directly west of Cedar before going over the river. The line appears to only have had a connecting track with the LS&MS in the northwest quadrant of the interchange before it went over the river.

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by Dan Cluley »

I figured the concrete was for truck parking, but there is another long narrow patch towards the east end of the lot too. Maybe just a coincidence, but it seems to be in approximately the right area for the tracks.

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by J T »

I have no recollection of seeing those tracks going in back of QD and connecting at the wye. I grew up in Lansing and was always interested in seeing a train on the tracks to the BWL building, so I'm confident I would have remembered seeing those tracks at some point in my life. However, I can't recall ever seeing tracks going east/west and crossing both Larch and Cedar. I was born in '67 and I'm quite certain that connector was gone by the early to mid-70s.

MiddleMI, in the photo you posted, the white building in the bottom left has a curve to it due to a spur that used to curve around it and cross Grand (visible in the map Dan posted above). I have a vivid memory as a child of seeing that spur crossing Grand when I was riding with my mom. I was probably 4 or 5 at the time. And later in my life, after they had removed the section of the spur across Grand, I remember seeing the tracks still curving next to the white building.

I attended LCC for a couple of years staring in the fall of 1985, and my main route there in the morning was west on Shiawassee over the river. I recall the west approach of the bridge was pretty steep, despite how it looks in that photo. The west approach on current bridge is much broader now, as already mentioned. I always wanted to catch a train going to the BWL as I drove to school, but I never saw any movements. I do remember seeing coal hoppers sitting next to the BWL buildings though.

I clearly remember both grade crossings at Oakland and Saginaw and I believe those tracks, from the scrap metal business to the north down to the BWL, were removed in the late 80s.
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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by MiddleMI »

Thanks for the recollections. That you don't remember the east-west connection to the mainline tells me that they must have moved coal in from the north using the connection track to the LS&MS line since the Eckert Street was still producing power right up to the 90's.

Speaking of this branch through Old Town, up until a few years ago, they still had the old coal silos for the LS&MS steam engines, I believe, just off where the fish ladder is now:

ImageIMG_2439 by galactichero, on Flickr

ImageOld Town Grain silos/Brenke Fish Ladder by randbanks, on Flickr

They were demolished for landscaping; they were about 100 years old.

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by Dan Cluley »

JT, we must have just missed each other. I was at LCC from ’87-’89.

As far as I know the North Lansing coal silos belonged to Lansing Ice & Fuel rather than the LS&MS. I assume they had a small coal tower somewhere in town. They had a very small yard downtown by their depot (basically where the Lansing Center & the City Market are) and a larger yard along the line between Mt Hope & MLK. My guess would be that the engine facilities were there, but I’ve never seen any pictures.

A couple of pictures that show the siding west of the CR/CSX tracks. The map shows the wye at Saginaw st connecting to this track. I don’t ever remember seeing this siding used, but it looks like it was connected to the main at least as late at ’91.

Image
Oakland Ave - May 1987

Image
Shiawasse St - April 1991
You can see the west siding switch is a couple hundred feet north of Shiawassee. I assume there were originally sidings on both sides of the mains south of Shiawassee st that went to the C&O and NYC freight stations.

Image
This is one of my all time favorite shots. Conrail 1675 coming across the bridge from the Ottawa St power plant. - June 23 1987


Image
Image
Image

Pulling out of the plant & heading across Saginaw st. October 20 1988
This may be the only time I've literally chased a train on foot. They ran very carefully through the park. This is the last time I saw this movement, but its interesting that there seem to be several piles of new ties along the track in the park.

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by MiddleMI »

Thanks for that correction/education on the silos near the fish ladder.

And, thanks for the excellent photos of the transit railway and the MC/CSX mainline. I knew I wasn't crazy for remembering those tracks in the park, though, they were probably torn up within a year or so of us moving to Lansing. I distinctly remember balancing on them as a kid walking them up to the bridge. lol

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by J T »

Dan Cluley wrote:JT, we must have just missed each other. I was at LCC from ’87-’89.

As far as I know the North Lansing coal silos belonged to Lansing Ice & Fuel rather than the LS&MS. I assume they had a small coal tower somewhere in town. They had a very small yard downtown by their depot (basically where the Lansing Center & the City Market are) and a larger yard along the line between Mt Hope & MLK. My guess would be that the engine facilities were there, but I’ve never seen any pictures.

A couple of pictures that show the siding west of the CR/CSX tracks. The map shows the wye at Saginaw st connecting to this track. I don’t ever remember seeing this siding used, but it looks like it was connected to the main at least as late at ’91.

You can see the west siding switch is a couple hundred feet north of Shiawassee. I assume there were originally sidings on both sides of the mains south of Shiawassee st that went to the C&O and NYC freight stations.
Nice pics, Dan! I never got to see a train on those tracks, and until now, I'd never seen any pics of one either. And to think I was probably somewhere else in town at the time and could have witnessed it myself.

I remember that siding north of Shiawassee that was originally part of the wye, and it didn't go much further than the curve in the wye itself. And as far as the siding on the south side of Shiawassee, I can remember that vividly....and I have a story for that. Back in '86 or so, a friend of mine and I were going to be heading up to Silver Lake to ride the dunes on our Honda 3-wheelers. He worked at College Bike Shop, which was right next to the tracks on the south side of Shiawassee. He was supposed to work on the Friday that we had originally planned our trip, but instead decided to call in sick so we could leave early in the afternoon. On a previous ride, he had taken a pretty hard spill on his 3-wheeler and bent the forks out of line. Not having a chance to fix them yet, he decided this day that he called in sick would be the perfect time...and he came up with a brilliant (and ridiculous!) plan. We took his 3-wheeler to that old, out of service siding in back of College Bike shop (you know, the place he was supposed to be working where he called in sick!) and wedged the thing in between the rails. Then he took a "come-along" (a type of winch), attached one end to the forks and the other to one of the rails and started the ratcheting process. Before we knew it, the forks had returned to the correct position and we were ready to head north. It still amazes me to this day that no one from the bike shop spotted him out there working on his 3-wheeler on the railroad tracks! :D
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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by Ben Higdon »

Great pictures, thanks for posting!

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by MiddleMI »

I wonder how far south the siding went? Seems that it probably went down to where the current CSX and JAIL intersection is. It must have been removed fairly recently, too, because an old 1994 photo from MichiganRailroads shows a train traveling south right next to Clara's (Union Depot/Station) along the siding.

Anyway, to the north of Shaiwassee, that old map (and it looks plenty old, too) I posted above does show the east siding going at least up to Oakland.

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by Dan Cluley »

I found a thread from a few years ago that covers some of this (and stole a great picture from it :D ) viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20000

The following is pieced together from that thread, a bunch of maps, found pictures, and some older notes I had.

Downtown Lansing Trackage:

The Michigan Central & Pere Marquette each came into the downtown area from the south with a single track which came together with a set of crossovers just south of Michigan Ave.

From MA north to North Lansing (E Grand River which was originally called Franklin Ave) both main tracks were owned by the MC. The current CSX is the eastern of these two tracks.

At North Lansing there was another pair of crossovers allowing the MC to curve to the east of the Motor Wheel plant with 2 tracks, and the PM to curve west with 2 tracks.

The MC freight house was on the north side of Michigan Ave east of the tracks. (the 2 story brick building owned by Sparrow) There were 3 tracks that came off the east main just south of Shiawasse st.

Starting a block or so north of Shiawasse st, there were sidings on both sides of the two mains that ran almost to North Lansing. These were owned by the MC and used to serve all the industries along that stretch.

North & south of Saginaw st, the west siding fed into a wye that led to the Lansing Transit Rwy (owned by the MC) that ran west parallel to Saginaw st, crossed the river & ended with tracks at the Ottawa st power plant & along Grand Ave.
It crossed the LS&MS at a diamond with a connector track on the NW.
At some point (probably when the Saginaw st underpass was built?) the north leg of the wye was removed, leaving just the connection to the south. The remaining track between the MC & the LS&MS was removed sometime between the mid '60s & the mid '80s leaving the trackage west of the river connected to the LS&MS only.

The only PM tracks downtown were west of the main line in the area around the passenger station (Clara's) and a few blocks north.
A ladder track came off the west main just south of Shiawassee st & headed north into the area between Larch st & the main tracks, ending short of the Lansing Transit track headed west.
South off this ladder were several tracks that ran basically where Pere Marquette st is now serving those buildings, a track that ran along the west side of the passenger station used for pullman & baggage car storage/loading, and a track that ran along the east side of the PM freight house, which was right along the main track between the passenger station & Shiawasse st.

The Lake Shore & Michigan Southern started at a connection to the PM at the Turner st grade crossing, and ran south as a single track until it crossed the Lansing Transit Rwy south of Saginaw st. There were a number of sidings off this track to serve industries between North st & Oakland Ave.
South of the LT diamond the LS&MS spead out into a 3 track yard. Photos suggest that this went back down to 2 tracks passing under the Shiawasse st bridge and then back to a single track with some industry sidings before the Michigan Ave bridge.
The LS&MS passenger & freight stations were in the stretch between Shiawasssee & Michigan, and there may have been more trackage in this area early in the 20th century when this line was busier. From what I can tell, once the LS&MS and the MC both became part of the NYC, the Lake Shore became much less important overall.

Image
USGS map

Image
The south connection to the Lansing Transit is in the foreground
Coal hoppers are on the west siding
C&O passenger train is on the west main
Switch stand in the background where the east siding split off the east main
Saginaw st passes under near the Prudden Wheel factory in the background

Image
Looking south from Shiawasse st. That is the PM freight house at right.
That is the 2 main tracks with the PM ladder track just splitting off to the right.
There is another track in the snow along the loading dock.

Image
The PM freight house (looks very similar to the one in Grand Ledge)
The west main & the ladder track are in the lower left corner
The freight house track is next to the building
There seems to be a couple of boxcars at a team track? platform in the background.

Image
LS&MS north from the Shiawasse st bridge

Image
LS&MS south from the Shiawasse st bridge
I suspect these were taken in the early '70s not too long before this part of the line was torn up.

Image
Looking south towards the Michigan Ave bridge. this one must be earlier, as there is an extra smokestack.
This is approximately where the street passes under the Lansing Center. The brick building at the left is still there. The "Briggs Co" building is where Museum Dr comes off of Michigan.

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by railroadchoad »

Where the Lansing Center now stands, there was once the LS&MS depot at the end of the aptly-named Depot Street. It was a handsome building befitting its proximity th the state's capitol. It do not know if it lasted much past World War II, though.
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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by MiddleMI »

Thanks for all that, Dan. Too add my own little shot (I was really just trying to get a skyline shot), here is the general area between Shiawassee and Michigan back in 2006. The PM freight house looks to have been right on Shiawassee at the tracks, so it'd be just out of shot to the left where a row of condominiums now stand:

Image
Lansing - Pere Marquette Place by NewCityOne, on Flickr

A long surface parking lot west of the tracks now stretches between Shiawassee and Michigan which mostly serves Sparrow employees (a small shuttle bus takes people to the campus a few blocks up the road).

This next pic is one I found of a CSX train in 1993 using the west main outside Claras:

Image
CSX - Lansing, MI by d.w.davidson, on Flickr

Here's a more recent shot (taken from just north of Clara's in the previous pic) from 2009 showing only the east main left:

Image
CSX Local Eastbound Lansing 01 by Dennis Kennedy, on Flickr

You can make out just to the left the covered parking spots for the condos right off the track, which is where the old PM freight depot must have been.

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Re: Lansing NS "South Yard"

Unread post by Jetlink »

I love the picture with the tell tales and the bridge.
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