Detroit-Toledo Passenger Rail-will this idea work?

[Burb8145]

Considering all this stuff going on, I'm surprised that no one has announced passenger rail between Detroit and Toledo yet.

As you know, a passenger rail connection between these two cities would be very realistic, as it would bring in a lot of opportunities, as it will connect a major east-west corridor with an important international gateway.

Do you think this will ever happen in our futures?

[Saturnalia]

Not with the distance covered easily with the freeways. Anybody going to Chicago can use the Wolverine or LSL or CL from Toledo. So you've got all the bases covered.

Probably the most practical addition to Toledo would be a seperate DAYLIGHT train to Chicago.

That's my worthless pennies, anyways.

[PerRock]

It would have to be competitive with the current buses running that route, the big one being cost & time. I wouldn't be surprised to see my idiotic city government (A2) pay for a study, they seem to like doing that, into it. But if I had to guess the DET-TOL train would happen after the A2-DET commuter line has been running.

I also haven't looked at the maps, so maybe someone who is more familiar with the tracks in the area can determine if the Woodward Ave station is in a decent place for that connection (aka wouldn't involve a reverse move).

peter

[railohio]

Do you think this will ever happen in our futures?

No.

[M.D.Bentley]

Already been done - passed tense. Yes it would be a quicker trip if you were heading East or West. The SB train would have to arrive in Toledo in time to meet the connecting train to make it work, without hanging around all day ( YES Toledo is a VERY nice city ). Not sure the ridership would be enough to support the service. A few years ago they ( Amtrak ) did run qualifying trains so crews could be familiar with the route. But nothing came out of it.

[NYCMan]

What the heck. Perhaps MDOT will drop a million into a study to determine the "feasibility" of a Detroit-Toledo route. After all, it would be one more potential outlet for them to put their WallyWorld/Flying Pig Express (ex-METRA) equipment to work. That is, after they get done installing ADA-compliant toilets in the cars.

I recall a study a year so bacl that shows that Amtrak's Wolverine LOSES around $40 per passenger carried, and that was before MDOT poured around $150 Million into buying the track, and their plan to spend that much and more additional to upgrade "high speed rail".

I wonder how much they could get the loses up to on a Detroit-Toledo route.

[PerRock]

I recall a study a year so bacl that shows that Amtrak's Wolverine LOSES around $40 per passenger carried, and that was before MDOT poured around $150 Million into buying the track, and their plan to spend that much and more additional to upgrade "high speed rail"..

ALL forms of transportation in the end looses money. It's just in America politicians and pundits only like to talk about passenger rail loosing money.

peter

[Saturnalia]

I'm pretty sure freight rail wins. I think once you deduct subsidies/grants from the Class Is (the ones we have data from), you still end up even. That's what I'd bet, no I haven't crunched the numbers.

But yeah, passenger rail? It ain't ever gon make a greenback! It is all about getting that hole as small as possible while still maintaining service that is quality.

[Bulby]

I'm pretty sure freight rail wins. I think once you deduct subsidies/grants from the Class Is (the ones we have data from), you still end up even. That's what I'd bet, no I haven't crunched the numbers.

But yeah, passenger rail? It ain't ever gon make a greenback! It is all about getting that hole as small as possible while still maintaining service that is quality.

If roads were not subsidized, Passenger rail could turn an operational profit; now, enough to make capital improvements? No, but it could cover day to day costs.

Even without subsidies, and even more so if you stopped subsidizing the trucks, freight can generally make a profit. As with anything, there are exceptions to that though.

[hoborich]

Many years ago, I took Amtrak home from Florida to Detroit. It was the trip from hell. We were bussed from Toledo to Detroit, which was the least of the problems. Don't know if they still bus from Detroit to Toledo these days.

[ConrailMan5]

Many years ago, I took Amtrak home from Florida to Detroit. It was the trip from hell. We were bussed from Toledo to Detroit, which was the least of the problems. Don't know if they still bus from Detroit to Toledo these days.

Yes they still thruway it from lansing-AA-Dearborn-Detroit-Tol. Hardly patronized last time I did it a few years ago. Aside from our youth group, maybe 5 other people. The bus service covers it, no need for an Amtrak train between Detroit and Toledo. Commuter is another story. In the future... and I mean distant future, I could see a commuter type train running the distance. But that's assuming the metro Detroit population increases substantially and there is some serious job growth within the area.
On that note, was there ever a commuter train route on that corridor?

[C&O6084]

Apparently nobody remembers the Lake Cities, one of the Chicago-Detroit trains extended to Toledo for a while in the 80's. It connected with the Lake Shore (only) , and did better than expected. Done in by Conrail's inability to turn the F40 in the 8 hours available, and somebody (?) insisting that the Lake States unload as far from the Lake Shore as possible, necessitating a very long walk for everyone, especially coach passengers.

[Bulby]

Apparently nobody remembers the Lake States, one of the Chicago-Detroit trains extended to Toledo for a while in the 80's. It connected with the Lake Shore (only) , and did better than expected. Done in by Conrail's inability to turn the F40 in the 8 hours available, and somebody (?) insisting that the Lake States unload as far from the Lake Shore as possible, necessitating a very long walk for everyone, especially coach passengers.

A train will always do better than a bus on the same route.

[MQT1223]

Many years ago, I took Amtrak home from Florida to Detroit. It was the trip from hell. We were bussed from Toledo to Detroit, which was the least of the problems. Don't know if they still bus from Detroit to Toledo these days.

Are the buses themselves run by Amtrak or are they charter buses? I've never seen a bus with an Amtrak logo on the side or anything.

[fmilhaupt]

Apparently nobody remembers the Lake States, one of the Chicago-Detroit trains extended to Toledo for a while in the 80's. It connected with the Lake Shore (only) , and did better than expected. Done in by Conrail's inability to turn the F40 in the 8 hours available, and somebody (?) insisting that the Lake States unload as far from the Lake Shore as possible, necessitating a very long walk for everyone, especially coach passengers.

I rode the Lake Cities/Lake Shore Limited combination from Ann Arbor to Cleveland once in 1988 or 1989. Aside from the fact that there were only about five of us on the train once it backed out of Michigan Central station in Detroit, it wasn't a bad ride, just a slow one heading Downriver. There was no AmCafe service past Detroit. We had about an hour's layover in Toledo before the Lake Shore arrived, and got to Cleveland until about 3:15am or so.

The eastbound Lake Cities' timing was hampered by trying to fit the connection to the eastbound Lake Shore into a slot that also made sense for Chicago->Detroit travel, especially given that that eastbound Lake Shore wasn't due into Toledo until around 1:00am at the time. At least it was generally keeping better time back then. Westbound, the Lake Shore had a later arrival in Toledo, so the Lake Cities left some time before 9 or 10am, crept to Detroit, then served as the mid-day Detroit->Chicago service. I never took the Toledo->Detroit leg westbound.

Since the Lake Shore's timing was set up to work best at the Chicago and New York ends of the run, Michigan->Cleveland was clearly not a target market for this service, but we had to try it...

[iandt]

Just for reference, there is a detailed thread about Amtrak's Det-Tol servic between 1980 and 1995, interesting to learn about:
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 46&t=67954

Around 1900, there was even an interurban route built between the two cities, the Detroit, Monroe & Toledo Short Line Railway. I'm not sure how long it lasted, but it was eventually absorbed by LS&MS and then NYC, which is why there is such a great distance between NS's NB and SB mains on the Detroit line - they were once two separate railroads. So, passenger rail between these cities has been tried before.

As for another train running this route - never gonna happen, and certainly not worth a study, but definitely worth a discussion.

[Ypsi]

The bus works but like pointed out in that link posted it cuts off passenger service from the east which is a point I had never thought of.. Would be neat if you could have 354 go down to TOL and flip as 351 in the morning as a connection to the lakey shore and Capitol. Would work decently well with minor schduel adjustments in either direction, but likely will never happen.

[GlassCityPhotos]

The Toledo regional transportation authority actually lists passenger rail service between Toledo and Detroit as one of its priorities (#32 out of 154) in its next proposed long-term plan http://www.tmacog.org/Transportation/20 ... -18-15.pdf. The main idea is to create a rail connection to the Detroit Airport, which most Toledoans use to the detriment of the local airport, as well as the city itself. Combine the airport traffic with people wanting to go to Detroit for the casinos and professional sports and the people that Amtrak currently bus between Toledo and Detroit and maybe the service would be sustainable.

Of course the draft transportation plan does not allocate funding for any of these priority projects and it is filled with other somewhat fanciful ideas when it comes to rail (Toledo to Bowling Green passenger rail service? ), but there are some more down-to-earth ideas like rail-grade separations, expanding the NS Intermodal Terminal (Airline Yard) in Toledo and moving intercity bus service to the Toledo train station to offer more multimodal connections there. They are currently soliciting input on this draft version of the plan, so maybe people on this forum who are familiar with northwest Ohio and southeast Michigan can provide them with some meaningful input on what would really improve freight and passenger rail in the Toledo area. Comments can be submitted at http://www.tmacog.org/onthemove_draft2045.htm.

[PerRock]

Many years ago, I took Amtrak home from Florida to Detroit. It was the trip from hell. We were bussed from Toledo to Detroit, which was the least of the problems. Don't know if they still bus from Detroit to Toledo these days.

Are the buses themselves run by Amtrak or are they charter buses? I've never seen a bus with an Amtrak logo on the side or anything.

Most Amtrak Thruway buses, these included, are contracted out to a coach company. Last I heard these buses are operated by Indian Trails (same folks who run the AirRide & Michigan Flyer), but are for Amtrak passengers only. So in a sense their chartered.

Come to think of it, the only Amtrak-branded buses I know of run on the West Coast & are line-branded. Amtrak California runs buses (marked as such) as does the Cascades.

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For comparison... Indian Trails runs scheduled buses from Detroit to Toledo for about $14; trip is ~55mins long. There is one stop in Lincoln Park


peter