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Erroneous Monk wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 6:09 pm

i995impalass wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 8:19 am

1-1.3% Comstock Park hill to between 9-10 mile road to Mill Creek on Marquette Rail

Andy ^

That’s wayyyy north. I am talking about exactly at West River Drive and 4 Mile Road. I’ll take 1% for the grade if it’s the same stretch of hill.

Gratiot Hill at the Michigan Transit Museum (Former GTW Selfridge Spur) gets up to a 5 percent grade at one point (or so I've been told) and was at one time the steepest grade anywhere on the GTW. We've had a few times where rain or wet leaves create slippery conditions where even our motorcar equipped with a Ford 4 Cylinder engine struggles to get a grip on the rails. although, it is fun listening to a repowered Baldwin in notch 8 climb up the grade during one of our Sunday excursions. One of our members can recall a time when we would power the Chicago "L" cars we have for passenger service in a "Pull - Pull" operation with our Alco S1 former USAX 1807. During one of those rainy days, 1807 was struggling up Gratiot Hill to reach the passenger platform that was formerly located in the median of Gratiot Road (currently R and R Used Cars). The motorman at the end of the "L" car turned on the traction motors and pushed 1807 the rest of the way.

What's the grade like around Lake Odessa on the CSX Plymouth Sub? For a relatively flat area through Mid-Michigan, it's rather noticeable.

MiddleMI wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:22 pm

What's the grade like around Lake Odessa on the CSX Plymouth Sub? For a relatively flat area through Mid-Michigan, it's rather noticeable.

Eastbounds face a 1.8% climb to about First St., then .66%. Max for westbounds in the area is .70% leading up to Bliss Rd.

I feel a compulsory need to include Boon Hill on the old Ann Arbor, inactive now and certainly not the steepest, but worthy of mention!

Andy24 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 6:14 pm

Erroneous Monk wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 6:09 pm

i995impalass wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 8:19 am

1-1.3% Comstock Park hill to between 9-10 mile road to Mill Creek on Marquette Rail

Andy ^

That’s wayyyy north. I am talking about exactly at West River Drive and 4 Mile Road. I’ll take 1% for the grade if it’s the same stretch of hill.

The grade I was referring to starts at Mill creek (West River) and the summit is between 9-10 mile. If you're looking at specify when we stalled out Northbound, it was always right before 6 mile, the steepest point of that hill is between 6-7 mile. Likewise, departing Sparta South we had to make a good run at it to make it over the 9 mile crossing and drift to Comstock Park.

Snow, rain, leaves, engines operating properly also will play a part. Not all engines on trains are always operating or operating at 100%. Things like traction motors can be cut out or ABTH rules prohibit the number of power axles that can be online for fuel conservation or dynamic brake limitations and can sometimes be just dead weight.

Northbound during a stall, train needs to be cut and tonnage sent to the next siding, which was typically Sparta. Cars have been left at North Park to double out of the river valley as well.

MiddleMI wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:22 pm

What's the grade like around Lake Odessa on the CSX Plymouth Sub? For a relatively flat area through Mid-Michigan, it's rather noticeable.

On a side note, the "Lake O Dip" as it is known, almost exactly mirrors the grade into and out of the Detroit-Windsor tunnel. CSX engineers on the CP trains will tell you that how a train handled east-bound through Lake Odessa would give you a good idea on how it would handle going through the tunnel. Obviously, trains can go a bit faster through Lake Odessa than they can the tunnel.

SD80MAC wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 08, 2024 11:14 am

MiddleMI wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:22 pm

What's the grade like around Lake Odessa on the CSX Plymouth Sub? For a relatively flat area through Mid-Michigan, it's rather noticeable.

On a side note, the "Lake O Dip" as it is known, almost exactly mirrors the grade into and out of the Detroit-Windsor tunnel. CSX engineers on the CP trains will tell you that how a train handled east-bound through Lake Odessa would give you a good idea on how it would handle going through the tunnel. Obviously, trains can go a bit faster through Lake Odessa than they can the tunnel.

Out of curiosity, where does the descents and rises generally end/begin in this little valley?

Going east, the descent starts about halfway through the siding between the switches in Lake Odessa. The other side levels off roughly between the Eaton and Clark road crossings.

Can someone confirm this? 5% seems too steep.

GTW Dude wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 9:16 pm

Gratiot Hill at the Michigan Transit Museum (Former GTW Selfridge Spur) gets up to a 5 percent grade at one point (or so I've been told) and was at one time the steepest grade anywhere on the GTW.

Familiar with the area, and there might be a grade there, but cannot believe it is 5 %. The surrounding area is generally flat,or that's the way it seems.

Selfridge Branch maybe.5% to 1% grade seems more realistic to me.

joeyuboats wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 09, 2024 11:18 am

Familiar with the area, and there might be a grade there, but cannot believe it is 5 %. The surrounding area is generally flat,or that's the way it seems.

using topo maps for elevation and google maps to measure distance, i get about 1.5% westbound up to gratiot.
steep but manageable considering it's an industrial spur and it would be empties heading uphill.
edit: the steep grade is also very short.

Thank you DaveO

Many years ago there was a sugar beet plant where Gibraltar is. They brought in sugar beets but may have hauled out a few loads of sugar products up that incline.

DaveO wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:01 pm

using topo maps for elevation and google maps to measure distance, i get about 1.5% westbound up to gratiot.

AARR wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 09, 2024 10:35 am

Can someone confirm this? 5% seems too steep.

GTW Dude wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 9:16 pm

Gratiot Hill at the Michigan Transit Museum (Former GTW Selfridge Spur) gets up to a 5 percent grade at one point (or so I've been told) and was at one time the steepest grade anywhere on the GTW.

Selfridge Spur is 1.35% ruling wb grade (per mid-century GTW track charts). The name is Franklin Hill - named for the farm that once occupied both sides of the RoW. Gratiot Hill is just a name applied by rails buffs from the museum. I've ridden a number of coal trains out and back during the SAC days (the biggest was 31 cars) and the engineer mentioned that the grade was inconsequential in diesel days. My rides were always behind SW1200's and GP9's. Only loads up the hill were occasional boxcars of sugar products and beat residue (pulp waste) - most outbound loads went by truck. If the rails were wet, steam engines (0-8-0's and mikados) may have had the rare issue, but most marched right up. The grade may look stiff as viewed from Gratiot, but if it were anywhere near 5%, it would be like looking down the big dip on the Bob-Lo coaster!

Man o' War

SD80MAC wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 08, 2024 11:14 am

MiddleMI wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:22 pm

What's the grade like around Lake Odessa on the CSX Plymouth Sub? For a relatively flat area through Mid-Michigan, it's rather noticeable.

On a side note, the "Lake O Dip" as it is known, almost exactly mirrors the grade into and out of the Detroit-Windsor tunnel. CSX engineers on the CP trains will tell you that how a train handled east-bound through Lake Odessa would give you a good idea on how it would handle going through the tunnel. Obviously, trains can go a bit faster through Lake Odessa than they can the tunnel.

I've been through the "Lake 'O' Dip" twice on PM 1225. Had no problem because we had an Excellent Engr Pilot with us. Been through the Detroit-Windsor railroad tunnel several times on my regular job. At that time the speed limit through the tunnel was 40 mph. Both locations were very interesting to say the least!

What was the grade on the track connecting the AA to the MC at Argo Dam in Ann Arbor? When was it taken out of service?

I was asked by a supervisor on the GR what the grade was on the Amway siding. I was curious and asked why. He said slowly: the crew slid across M-21 and...thru the gate. And then he added: not once but twice. So I went and measured it- 3.0%

Since this thread is slowing done, I just wanted to comment on this post.

I am old enough to remember the coal dealer in the NW corner of South Gratiot. They usually had a car or two on their short spur.

And while you were lucky enough to see a 31 block of coal going to Selfridge, I only saw them deliver coal one time to Selfridge. It was a five-car block of Chessie cars. It may have been the last loads ever delivered there for all I know.

Man o' War wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:03 pm

Selfridge Spur is 1.35% ruling wb grade (per mid-century GTW track charts). The name is Franklin Hill - named for the farm that once occupied both sides of the RoW. Gratiot Hill is just a name applied by rails buffs from the museum. I've ridden a number of coal trains out and back during the SAC days (the biggest was 31 cars) and the engineer mentioned that the grade was inconsequential in diesel days. My rides were always behind SW1200's and GP9's. Only loads up the hill were occasional boxcars of sugar products and beat residue (pulp waste) - most outbound loads went by truck. If the rails were wet, steam engines (0-8-0's and mikados) may have had the rare issue, but most marched right up. The grade may look stiff as viewed from Gratiot, but if it were anywhere near 5%, it would be like looking down the big dip on the Bob-Lo coaster!

Man o' War