Chesterton Quiet Zone Study

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justin_gram
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Chesterton Quiet Zone Study

Unread post by justin_gram »

From Town of Chesterton Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/303836104953/p ... 99954/?d=n
Parameters of railroad quiet zone clarified

Two weeks ago, on Feb. 14, at a special meeting of the Chesterton Town Council, a consultant with Rio Grande Pacific Technology of Fort Worth, Texas, offered a detailed, 60-minute gloss of the quite-zone feasibility study prepared by his company.

Dan Fregia clarified some vital issues, in particular the various retrofits which would need to performed on the nine different railroad grade-crossings in order for them to qualify for quiet-zone designation:

*Along the Norfolk Southern: South Calumet Road, North Fourth Street, North Eighth Street, North 15th Street, and North Jackson Blvd.

*Along the CSX: North Calumet Road, Locust Street, Waverly Road, and North 15th Street.

Fregia did an excellent job nut-shelling the “supplemental safety measures” and “alternative safety measures” which at, or on either side of, or along the grade-crossings would satisfy the Federal Railroad Administration: chiefly four-quadrant gate systems, on the one hand; and non-mountable medians or channelization, on the other.

Fregia also provided two cost matrices, one estimating the cost of retrofitting each of the five grade-crossings along the Norfolk Southern line, the other the cost of retrofitting the four along the CSX, including his estimate of how much the Town of Chesterton would pay for each retrofit and how much the given railroad itself would:

*Total cost CSX: $745,529 (Chesterton $325,529; CSX $420,000)

*Total cost Norfolk Southern: $744,529 (Chesterton $354,529; Norfolk Southern $390,000)

*Total cost of retrofitting all nine grade-crossings: $1.27 million to $1.49 million.

Town Council members, however—and staff as well—left that special meeting possibly with more questions than they had before it. Town Manager Dave Cincoski and Town Engineer Mark O’Dell thought Fregia’s cost estimates too low. Member Jim Ton, R-1st, for his part doubted the willingness of any railroad operating in Indiana to assume any part of the cost of this or any other quiet-zone project. And a very specific question Fregia was simply unable at the time to answer: In order to obtain a quiet-zone designation, would the Town of Chesterton be obliged to retrofit every grade-crossing—all nine of them—on both lines?

Two weeks later, at the Town Council’s meeting Monday night, Feb. 28, Cincoski was able to bring clarity to all but one of the issues niggling in members’ minds.

COST ESTIMATE

Cincoski reported that Fregia has since confirmed that some of his costs were indeed underestimated.

“He said he will get me a new cost matrix when he gets that information together,” Cincoski told the Town Council.

COST SHARE

Fregia also confirmed Ton’s suspicions that Norfolk Southern and CSX are neither obligated to share in the cost of retrofitting grade-crossing nor likely to have any interest in doing so.

“Not going to happen,” Cincoski said. “It’s going to be all town costs. So any improvements that have to be made that the railroad will be responsible for making are going to be at the town’s cost.”

“I remember that,” Ton replied, “because (Fregia) indicated that in Texas, where he usually does his work, the state pays for quiet crossings. Indiana won’t do that. Don’t even wait for that.”

SEVERABILITY

There is, though, a bit of good news. The Town of Chesterton is not only NOT required to retrofit all nine grade-crossings on both lines, it’s not required either to retrofit all five grade-crossings on the Norfolk Southern (or all four on the CSX).

As Cincoski explained, there’s a formula. “A quiet zone has to be one-half mile minimum,” he said. “If you start your quiet zone crossing at Calumet Road, it has to be one-half mile in length, and then any crossing after that that’s within one-quarter mile also has to be covered. So, for instance, if you want to have Calumet and Fourth Street covered under the quiet zone, you will have to incorporate Eighth Street as well, because it’s within one-quarter mile of that one-half mile limit. However, once you get to 15th Street you’re outside the quarter mile limit. From Eighth Street to 15th Street is more than a quarter of a mile.’

“In summary, if the Town Council chose to do the project, and if you chose just to do Norfolk Southern—per the consultant—you could limit yourself to Calumet, Fourth, and Eighth,” Cincoski said. “Unless you want to go further.”

Which was precisely what Ton wanted to hear. As he noted at the Feb. 28 special meeting, “This particular program didn’t include the global perspective we have here in this report. It included specific crossings that affect our use of the Downtown park area and that was the impetus of the study. We did not, years ago, envision doing every crossing in town. That was not the idea, simply because of the cost and also because we felt it was for economic development principally. And not to hear train horns would enhance economic development and our use of the park, which is right by the railroad. I guess my point is, what can we take apart here to break the thing down?”

GOING FORWARD

At this point, Cincoski is still waiting for Rio Grande Pacific Technology to submit refined cost estimates.

Then the Town Council will have decisions to make: Whether to proceed with the railroad quiet zone, and if so which line or lines or crossings on a line to retrofit.

Should the Town Council be of a mind to proceed, the next step would be to issue a request for engineering proposals, Cincoski said.

According to Fregia, it would take a minimum of 18 to 24 months—including engineering, bidding, construction, comment period, construction inspection, and notice of intent—to obtain a quiet zone designation.

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Re: Chesterton Quiet Zone Study

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Consultants are supposed to be the experts aren't they? Not the locals!

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Re: Chesterton Quiet Zone Study

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I get how obnoxious train horns get, particularly in the middle of the night but to implement this and make the railroads pay for any of this is total BS. If a vote is taken with the public and it passes then the people (aka taxpayer $$) should foot 100 percent of the cost. Otherwise this is complete nonsense.

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Re: Chesterton Quiet Zone Study

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Welp, I’m never going there again if this goes into effect, there are going to be so many close calls…
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Re: Chesterton Quiet Zone Study

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David Collins wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:36 am
Welp, I’m never going there again if this goes into effect, there are going to be so many close calls…
Quiet zones are not more dangerous than non-quiet zones in terms of close calls, at all. Quad gates or channelization significantly reduces if not eliminates gate-runners and crews still use the horn when necessary for pedestrians or trespassers who ignore everything else.

In fact due to the great reduction in gate running due to quad gates or channelization, I feel that most quiet zones are actually safer than those without. Not for anything the railroad does, but the motoring public is forced into compliance with the warning devices.

As for cost share, yeah unless Chesterton worked it out with CSX and/or NS it’s probably all on them. I bet if they agreed to close a crossing or two, they would get more funding for the rest however.

I do think that if they’re worried about the budget that doing CSX would be a waste of time if they have to choose one or the other. Pick the line with 60+ trains not 6!

As long as they don’t close Wagner/Jackson we’ll be good. I kinda like a spot with good engine noise versus horn sometimes.
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Re: Chesterton Quiet Zone Study

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David Collins wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:36 am
Welp, I’m never going there again if this goes into effect, there are going to be so many close calls…
Been to Durand? Seen or heard of any close calls?
Some countries don't use horns, bells, gates, crossing lights and only have occasional problems with idiot drivers.
Why should the USA be different?

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Re: Chesterton Quiet Zone Study

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DaveO wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:02 am
Been to Durand? Seen or heard of any close calls?

I have seen quite a few there
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Re: Chesterton Quiet Zone Study

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DaveO wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:02 am
Why should the USA be different?
Americans can be a special breed of stupid sometimes....

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Re: Chesterton Quiet Zone Study

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David Collins wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:11 am
DaveO wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:02 am
Been to Durand? Seen or heard of any close calls?

I have seen quite a few there
And Durand’s pre-existed the current rules of quad gates or channelizing. Still, actual incidents are extremely rare there.
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Re: Chesterton Quiet Zone Study

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Saturnalia wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:47 am
As long as they don’t close Wagner/Jackson we’ll be good. I kinda like a spot with good engine noise versus horn sometimes.
If the engineer sees someone near the track that they feel needs to hear a horn for safety reasons they can still sound the horn. As much as needed for safety purposes.

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Re: Chesterton Quiet Zone Study

Unread post by CSXBOY »

Chesterton becoming a QZ? Wtf is wrong with our society? For the love of God dont buy a house right next to the train tracks. The railroads were there first before the houses and neighborhoods. Plus when I went there in 2014-15 it was very busy and the traffic nowadays I bet is considerably less with NS adopting PSR. Plus how has the QZ down the line worked out in Mishawaka? How many close calls or deaths happened there or dumb drivers simply not paying attention? Oh yeah. Quiet Zones being safer than having the crews blow their horns is the biggest propaganda I have ever heard of. Funny how operation lifesaver wants to prevent more deaths from dumb drivers and pedestrians, but cities are complaining about horn usage on trains. Horns are there for a reason to keep you safe! Even if cities were to prohibit horn usage at night and have it during peak times during the day I'd be fine with it. But all around QZs is very unsafe and most of them in our country are either rushed or stupidly developed. Plus you know why Durand has less accidents even with a QZ in effect? It's because it's a small town with not many people. Meanwhile Chesterton is a suburb of Chicagoland filled with people. Just look how busy Calumet Street is in downtown Chesterton. It's a nightmare waiting to happen just like Mishawaka. You already have to pay taxes with everything else like gas and food. I dont get why people would be willing to pay for it. Quiet Zones cost a ton of money. At least Norfolk Southern does not come barking at my door asking me to pay hundreds in taxes even though they have loud horns.... Sheesh.

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Re: Chesterton Quiet Zone Study

Unread post by Raildudes dad »

If I'm not mistaken 2 posters without drivers licenses are the most vocal about how Quiet Zones are so unsafe. A couple of experienced experts. SHEESH......

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Re: Chesterton Quiet Zone Study

Unread post by justalurker66 »

So who asked Rio Grande Pacific Technology to come make the presentation?

They are a company that sells crossing protection ... which makes me wonder about the bad price estimates made in the presentation. One would think a company that specializes in crossing protection would know the costs.

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