Elkhart, Ind.

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justalurker66
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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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Trackwork on track 3 near CP 417 continues ... Track 3 is now straight west of CP 417 (no bend around the former signal location).

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justalurker66
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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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The Elkhart Truth reports that the beams for the new Prairie Street overpass will be put into place on Tuesday (August 11th).

Dajudge
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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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So I have a question. At MP414 (cty rd 17 Dunlap) why do these blocks (EB and WB) rest at yellow over red? In almost all cases when there is nothing going on and the blocks are free of traffic it seems Yellow over red is the default resting aspect. I am used to all red being the dormant aspect.

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justalurker66
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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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The signals are intermediates ... unless there is a train in the block beyond the signal the signal is based on what the next signal is.

For an eastbound if the signal for that track at CP 412 is STOP then 414xE displays APPROACH (yellow over red).
For a westbound if the signal for that track at CP 417 is STOP then 414xW displays APPROACH (yellow over red).
The "resting" state of CP 412 and CP 417 would be all stop ... and the intermediates would show approach.

If the track at the CP is cleared then414 will change from approach to a less restrictive aspect (clear, advance approach, approach medium, etc).
If the track is cleared in the opposite direction (for example CP 412 cleared 1 to 1) then the opposing signal at 414 will show "all red" ... even before the train is present. (All red at an intermediate being RESTRICTING, not STOP.)

If you go out to CR 38 in Goshen you can see two intermediates. With no trains present and nothing cleared to move 407 is ADVANCE APPROACH (flashing yellow) and 410 is APPROACH. If 405's westbound is lit you would see GREEN as a "resting" state.

I assume NS will set these signals to approach lit once PTC is in place. The old intermediate signals were approach lit ... dark unless a train was in the block on that side of the signal (on any track in either direction). Then the "resting state" will become "dark".

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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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Thanks for the explanation on intermediates. To me it would seem that a block protects the track behind it, that simple. But with levels of protection and flashing yellows its hard for none employee to know what's up.

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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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BTW: I am not employed by a railroad. I am just a rail fan that pays more attention to tracks and signals than trains.

Dajudge
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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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Question for Dunlap signal maintainer:

Why now between MP419 and 415 do the crossing gates take so long to lift after passing train? Before the "improvement in signals" arms would lift within 50 feet of end of train clearing. Now, especially Sunnyside, the end of train goes 1/4 mile before arms lift. No other trains in sight fouling adjacent track. Anybody have an answer?

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MaintainerGary
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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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The island didn't have a delay set before. Now it is the maximum of six seconds. The island delay was intended as a loss of shunt timer for short islands but now they figure the longer the delay the safer it is.

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justalurker66
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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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From neighboring Goshen ... a fence has been added along the new sidewalk on the east side of the Marion Branch track in Goshen.
Goshen 9th St Fence.jpg
But "not a good sign" ... the pedestrian crossing that ran parallel to 9th St across the Chicago Line has been permanently closed. Pedestrians are expected to use 8th St and Lincoln Ave to cross the tracks. (I saw no sign for northbound pedestrians.)
Goshen 9th St Closed.jpg
(While I was taking photos a family walked north across the Chicago line where the sidewalk once was. Trespassers.)

rob46580
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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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You ever seen the 33 overpass plans? Going to be interesting for pedestrian traffic all along there in the future.

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justalurker66
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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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rob46580 wrote:You ever seen the 33 overpass plans? Going to be interesting for pedestrian traffic all along there in the future.
I have seen the plans ... and agree with those in the neighborhood that feel that they are being cut off by the changes.

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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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Question. South of Dunlap I have noticed the dispatchers like to park EB on main 3 just short of Peddlers Village crossing. The block that controls that section (mp412) is around the corner there at Martins and out of sight. Is the train under only radio control at that point? Is that normal?

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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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Dajudge wrote:Question. South of Dunlap I have noticed the dispatchers like to park EB on main 3 just short of Peddlers Village crossing. The block that controls that section (mp412) is around the corner there at Martins and out of sight. Is the train under only radio control at that point? Is that normal?
Yes.

If the train is short enough to fit west of 414 they normally stop there. But to keep the crossing at CR 15 (Ox Bow) clear trains will roll past 414 and stop short of Peddler's Village. Northbound trains on the Marion Branch do the same thing, passing 9N south of New Paris then holding out at MP 8, with the 6N signal out of sight around the next curve.

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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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So back to my Aug 10th question on block signals. If MP414 is considered an "intermediate" block, what is intermediate about it? Does that mean that all blocks between two control points are considered intermediates no matter how many there are or how long it goes? What other kinds of blocks would a main line have?

Also, saw a yellow over flashing green over red at CP417 WB last night. Might that be a medium approach (medium speed), advanced clear (indicating next 2nd block as clear), with track divergence (crossover)?

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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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Intermediate aka "permissive" aka not an absolute. You can pass an all red at this signal at restricted speed. Whereas at absolutes, you may never pass an all red without permission of the dispatcher.

Intermediates govern between absolute signals (controlled points), and are entirely automatic, with no input from the dispatcher. They line based on occupancy and the signals ahead.

In summary, there are two types of signals:
Absolute: DS-controlled, no passing all red, govern controlled points.
Intermediate/Permissive/Block: not controlled by the DS, may pass an all red, govern the space between CPs, automatically controlled by electronics.

Anything not make sense there? It can be a bit confusing.
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justalurker66
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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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Dajudge wrote:So back to my Aug 10th question on block signals. If MP414 is considered an "intermediate" block, what is intermediate about it? Does that mean that all blocks between two control points are considered intermediates no matter how many there are or how long it goes? What other kinds of blocks would a main line have?
It isn't the block, it is the signals. How would you describe the block between 417 and 414? One enters it westbound past an intermediate signal but enters it eastbound via CP 417. Calling it an "intermediate block" just adds to the confusion. The signals at 414 are intermediate block signals, but one should not drop the word signals. Think of "block signals" as one word. The block signals at 414 are intermediate (between controlled points). The block signals at 417 are part of a controlled point.

There can be many intermediate signals between controlled points (such as the six intermediate signal locations between CP 412 Goshen and CP 397 Ligonier) or no intermediate signals between controlled points (such as between CP 397 and CP 395, or CP 437 and CP 435). Intermediate block signal locations.

Dajudge wrote:Also, saw a yellow over flashing green over red at CP417 WB last night. Might that be a medium approach (medium speed), advanced clear (indicating next 2nd block as clear), with track divergence (crossover)?
NS indications on the Chicago line NEVER indicate divergence. One may assume divergence based on the signals as certain combinations generally lead up to divergence but the NS signalling system is based on track speed, not route.

The signal you saw was "N281b APPROACH LIMITED - Proceed approaching the next signal at Limited Speed." Nothing about route, everything about speed. BTW: According to NS Operating Rules: "Limited Speed — For passenger trains, not exceeding 45 MPH; for freight trains, not exceeding 40 MPH." Read it as a "reduce speed ahead" sign.

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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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Yes they are speed based signals.

It's very possible with this system to get an approach medium or approach limited and not be diverging. Sometimes they will use ether one in advanced of an approach signal if that reproach signal is ahead of a short block.

Conrail had such a setup on the Indy line thru mccordsville IN approaching CP260 eastbound. If CP260 was red, you would get Approach Medium 2 signals west, Approach 1 signal out.

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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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Thank you all for these explanations. I always wondered how one could tell the difference between speed control and route. At first it seemed logical that color would be speed and arrangement would be route. But then the old Pennsy position block signals blew that theory. Can one find a copy of the 281 rule book on Ebay? If your a fan and not an employee these signals can drive you crazy. And BTW, how is NS with regards to the PTC dead line?

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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

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With a little work on Google or Bing one can find rule books and employee time tables for free on the Internet. Most are a few years old but still close enough to current for non-employee use.

BTW: Thanks for noticing the "yellow over flashing green". On the old signals it was easier to see what lamps were present in each head. On the new signals "three lamps over two" with everything arranged vertical it is not obvious what colors are present. Most of the time the signals at 414 are showing Clear, Approach or Stop with the bottom signal red. Knowing that the other bottom light is green helps figure out the additional aspects available.

NS is as far behind on PTC as the rest of the industry ... but the infrastructure is coming together. We are fortunate to be able to watch them "improve" the signals on lines in our area (to the dismay of people who really liked the old signals). With the PTC extension the pressure is off but improvements will continue.

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Re: Elkhart, Ind.

Unread post by Dajudge »

Sounds like the PTC extension has happened. I had not heard that yet. Fully expected.

Last night passing MP414 EB track one was yellow over flashing green. So I surmised 412 would be g-r-r. To my surprise it was r-fg-r. So a flashing signal does not guarantee a solid same color at the next BS, right?

And last month at 421 main street was r-r-g. I have to find a rule book......

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