Toledo Area Transportation Plan Seeking Comments

[GlassCityPhotos]

The Toledo regional transportation authority (TMACOG) is seeking public input on the current draft of its next long term plan. The plan covers all modes of transportation in Lucas and Wood counties in Ohio as well as Monroe county in Michigan. Some of the proposed rail projects are skewed towards expanding passenger rail service and the list appears to be lacking upgrades designed to reduce freight rail congestion. While Toledo may not need its own CREATE plan like Chicago, I would think that there are some areas within the region where freight trains do not operate as efficiently as they could. Of course, this plan only addresses infrastructure and not other issues like crew and equipment shortages.

Considering that railfans who know the area probably have a good idea where there bottlenecks are, I though that you might be interested in the opportunity to comment. It would be great for TMACOG to get more input from people who are knowledgeable about local rail operations. Comments can be submitted online at: http://www.tmacog.org/onthemove_draft2045.htm

[railohio]

TMACOG is a regional planning agency; TARTA is the transit agency.

[GlassCityPhotos]

TMACOG is a regional planning agency; TARTA is the transit agency.

TMACOG handles transportation planning for all the communities within the Toledo metropolitan area as well as the transportation flows into and out of the area. TARTA is concerned only with public transportation within its service area, which is not the entire metropolitan region as the service is funded by property taxes and several suburbs have left or never joined. Basically TARTA operates its fleet of buses and does not generally concern itself with infrastructure improvements to roads and highways, let alone rail and the port. If you look at TMACOG's draft plan, you will see some TARTA projects for new equipment, a new transit center downtown, etc, but most of the projects are sponsored by area governments or other entities like the port authority and not TARTA.

[CG Tower]

FWIW, most Regional Planning groups normally handle long term transportation planning in some fashion. This includes highway, rail, public transportation, etc...

I work with Regional Planning here in Allen County on a regular basis regarding issues with economic development. In fact, we currently are in a series of meetings dealing with some local industries reporting poor rail service (supposedly) in the past 6 months from CF&E and CSX. We have another meeting on that tomorrow.

Once in a while this hobby does actually have some value to what I do as a profession!

CG Tower

[MDH]

Meh. Specific to freight rail congestion, the only point in NWO where that's much of an issue is Vickers. Grade separating the lines has been proposed before but it's hugely expensive to do and quite frankly CSX just doesn't care that much about the delays there because they really don't matter much in the grand scheme of things. That's now kind of a dead issue with the new Wales Rd. overpass built. There's not a lot of high priority, time sensitive traffic on the CSX side and the run to Detroit isn't that long so if trains lose an hour or two there who really cares? Otherwise, "freight congestion" is generally internal issues to the railroads in question. I don't really think rail freight congestion is much of a TMACOG issue. Promoting rail service, advocating passenger rail, etc. are more in their wheelhouse.

[GlassCityPhotos]

Meh. Specific to freight rail congestion, the only point in NWO where that's much of an issue is Vickers. Grade separating the lines has been proposed before but it's hugely expensive to do and quite frankly CSX just doesn't care that much about the delays there because they really don't matter much in the grand scheme of things. That's now kind of a dead issue with the new Wales Rd. overpass built. There's not a lot of high priority, time sensitive traffic on the CSX side and the run to Detroit isn't that long so if trains lose an hour or two there who really cares?

Even though CSX is not interested in the project, wouldn't a grade separation at Vickers benefit NS a bit considering the type and amount of traffic on the main line? I realize that CSX moves far fewer trains than NS does through the crossing. Although it is not as bad as Wales was, David Patch at the Blade recently blogged about westbound NS trains waiting to clear Vickers blocking traffic on Lemoyne Road more often due to the signals on the tracks begin moved http://toledoblade.typepad.com/roadwarrior/.

Otherwise, "freight congestion" is generally internal issues to the railroads in question. I don't really think rail freight congestion is much of a TMACOG issue. Promoting rail service, advocating passenger rail, etc. are more in their wheelhouse.

As private companies, the railroads obviously have a final say in how they invest in their systems. But public money is often used to push the cost-benefit analysis in favor of a project getting built. TMACOG was the one to persuade NS to upgrade Airline to handle more intermodal traffic along with the related infrastructure and signal upgrades based on a local task force study https://coe-sufs.org/wordpress/ncfrp33/ ... o-oh/csay/, so they take a pretty active approach in freight rail issues when it comes to economic development. The current draft version of the plan even includes a proposed additional expansion of Airline, although it is a low priority (#106). There is also a proposed project for a second bridge over the Maumee River for the NS Chicago line as well as a few rail grade separation projects.

As for passenger rail, the plan could use some guidance as to which projects are the most feasible considering that one proposal is service between Toledo and BG... but there are also several more realistic projects related to improving the Toledo train station as well as improved service to Cleveland.

Finally, they are asking for feedback on how future infrastructure investments should be allocated between the various modes of transportation, so now would be the opportunity to suggest more funding for rail projects.

[esprrfan]

But see those are pie in the sky dreams as far as more passenger rail. Really what kind of ridership would there really be on a daily basis to support Tol-BG-Lima-Columbus, none or very limited at best. It wouldn't pay for a single engine and car. Why would anyone living like Maumee-Perrysburg- Waterville drive into Toledo wait to catch like the BG train only to get there and have no way to get around BG for that matter any of the southern cities. Even Tol-Cleveland its not like Amtrak is putting extra cars on to handle the swarms between the two points. Thats not even taking in to consideration getting NS/CSX to allow you too. For intercity rail to work (make profit) it has to start/stop where people want/need to go. Plus with cities being so close your fighting the use of ones car and that ability then to not be "trapped" at a station or having to spend hours hoping from bus to bus. Best you might do is like a train to like OSU game and back or a UT/BG train when they play each other. The side by side bridge with (NS) is a folly too it walk of like a walk way who the hell would walk on it besides the south/east side gang bangers looking to dump bodies. Let alone the operation of two side by side swing bridges. Sorry for looking negative, but its just reality

[SousaKerry]

Actually what passenger operation I have always wanted to see is a link between the Michingan Line trains and Toledo. If one Could say board a train in Jackson and turn South in Detroit and connect in Toledo to head to Pennsylvania or other points East without having to backtrack to Chicago I think this option could become quite popular. This would also help link the communities of Detroit and Toledo with something other then bus service.

[GlassCityPhotos]

But see those are pie in the sky dreams as far as more passenger rail. Even Tol-Cleveland its not like Amtrak is putting extra cars on to handle the swarms between the two points. Thats not even taking in to consideration getting NS/CSX to allow you too. For intercity rail to work (make profit) it has to start/stop where people want/need to go. Plus with cities being so close your fighting the use of ones car and that ability then to not be "trapped" at a station or having to spend hours hoping from bus to bus. Best you might do is like a train to like OSU game and back or a UT/BG train when they play each other.

I agree that a lot of the local passenger rail proposals do not make much sense. But millions of dollars may still be spent (wasted) on studies that only prove that the ideas will not work. That is why I am encouraging people who are more familiar with the railroad industry than the general public to comment on this plan so that the area's limited transportation dollars are used to advance projects that have real benefits.

The side by side bridge with (NS) is a folly too it walk of like a walk way who the hell would walk on it besides the south/east side gang bangers looking to dump bodies. Let alone the operation of two side by side swing bridges. Sorry for looking negative, but its just reality

The second bridge does not have to be a swing bridge, there is a white paper (http://www.slideshare.net/jwicks99/maum ... liftbridge) floating around about the idea for a lift bridge that would not prevent the existing swing bridge from opening, but the cost of that idea is insane. Considering that the Toledo area Metro Parks is developing the land adjacent to the Toledo train station as a park, a recreational trail across the river might make more sense in a couple of years. Also, what would happen if a mechanical failure or accident with a boat prevents the existing swing bridge from closing for a day or two? We are talking about a critical piece of infrastructure that is almost 100 years old that has no good backup and limited alternative routes.

[GlassCityPhotos]

Actually what passenger operation I have always wanted to see is a link between the Michingan Line trains and Toledo. If one Could say board a train in Jackson and turn South in Detroit and connect in Toledo to head to Pennsylvania or other points East without having to backtrack to Chicago I think this option could become quite popular. This would also help link the communities of Detroit and Toledo with something other then bus service.

Currently, Amtrak buses riders from Detroit to Toledo to make connections to the east. But rail service between Toledo and Detroit is part of project #32 in the current draft of the plan with the intention to connect both downtown Detroit and the Detroit airport with passenger rail service to Toledo. Considering that most people in northwest Ohio use the Detroit airport and not the local airport, the airport traffic might make this the passenger rail project most likely to succeed of all those proposed in the plan. But this proposal is included with the idea to expand service across northern Ohio, so it may really be a Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit and not just Toledo-Detroit.

[MSchwiebert]

I have to find the idea of another railroad bridge across the Maumee laughable at best. There's 3 now - and one is hardly (not?) used. I see they also still have their bike trail fetish too...