RailRoadFan.com

Mark F wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:40 pm

MrAnderson wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:21 pm

*cough* nationalize *cough cough*

Hope that was sarcasm. Yeah, let's put the bureaucrats who run who run Amtrak, the Postal Service, the Secretary of State's office etc. in charge of the freight railroads.

The Secretary of State in Michigan has never been ran better. Did they lose your tabs?

MOW has cleared main 2 at East Palestine, OH. 22X just got their light at LUM so things should slowly return to normal

Hope that was sarcasm. Yeah, let's put the bureaucrats who run who run Amtrak, the Postal Service, the Secretary of State's office etc. in charge of the freight railroads

Or.......God forbid, the current DOT "Mr Vacation".

R Bedell wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:34 am

Hope that was sarcasm. Yeah, let's put the bureaucrats who run who run Amtrak, the Postal Service, the Secretary of State's office etc. in charge of the freight railroads

Or.......God forbid, the current DOT "Mr Vacation".

Hey, be nice, He's still nursing.

Anyone read about the chemicals they've been releasing and burning? Quite a few reports of dead fish, foxes dying, chickens slowing down and producing different colored eggs. The burning of vinyl chloride produces phosgene. Phosgene is a chemical warfare agent that will cause pulmonary edema; fluid build-up in lungs aka drowning on dry land. It is also heavier than air and collects in areas it is released in, hence it kills effectively. It takes hours to break down in high concentrations.
https://nypost.com/2023/02/10/animals-s ... ain-crash/

~Z~ wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 12, 2023 8:21 am

Anyone read about the chemicals they've been releasing and burning? Quite a few reports of dead fish, foxes dying, chickens slowing down and producing different colored eggs. The burning of vinyl chloride produces phosgene. Phosgene is a chemical warfare agent that will cause pulmonary edema; fluid build-up in lungs aka drowning on dry land. It is also heavier than air and collects in areas it is released in, hence it kills effectively. It takes hours to break down in high concentrations.
https://nypost.com/2023/02/10/animals-s ... ain-crash/

Nasty stuff.

Unfortunately a lot of nasty stuff needs created and moved around to support our modern lives. Vinyl Chloride is a primary ingredient in PVC.

Saturnalia wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:07 am

MrAnderson wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:21 pm

*cough* nationalize *cough cough*

So a one-in-a-billion mechanical failure is cause to nationalize?

No, but the class 1's are pretty stupid.

MrAnderson wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:13 pm

Saturnalia wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:07 am

MrAnderson wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:21 pm

*cough* nationalize *cough cough*

So a one-in-a-billion mechanical failure is cause to nationalize?

No, but the class 1's are pretty stupid.

What does that actually mean? How do you define and quantify stupid? Examples? You seem to be generalizing and not supporting your statements. Stirring the pot maybe? OK. I can appreciate that too.

No, but the class 1's are pretty stupid.

How is that ??

MrAnderson wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:13 pm

Saturnalia wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:07 am

MrAnderson wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:21 pm

*cough* nationalize *cough cough*

So a one-in-a-billion mechanical failure is cause to nationalize?

No, but the class 1's are pretty stupid.

An organization can be overall poorly managed and still not really be responsible for an incident. So far, there isn’t much to suggest that NS did anything negligent here.

The Class Ones can be argued to be poorly managed in many ways, but honestly, engineering is not one of them. Wrecking trains is extremely expensive and a major risk to their bottom line, so they’ve poured billions into keeping trains on the track. There are still wrecks - obviously - but the rate they happen has continued to fall.

A video surveillance camera showed the train in Salem, Ohio, with flaming equipment under a covered hopper.

According to this news report, the location is approximately 20 miles from where the train derailed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHiXZUgQEwc

A different news report with additional discussion of the same video footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5rhdOTcVs0

MrAnderson wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:13 pm

No, but the class 1's are pretty stupid.

Personally just what I've learned (not an expert obviously). Is that the class 1's want the highest operating ratio because money. This has lead to ever decreasing numbers of workers, which means remaining crews are worked harder for longer, increasing chance of operator and maintenance errors. NOT SAYING THAT WAS WHAT CAUSED THIS SPECIFIC INCIDENT. They also will prioritize their freight over passenger trains (I know there are laws that say they can't but they do). Since I think increasing passenger train travel is crucial in our fight against climate change and just a better form of transport you see how there are conflicts. There are the workers rights issues with sick days etc. Deferred maintenance, decreasing local traffic, failed PSR implementations and lack of interest in capital investment show how much class 1s care about operating a good railroad, just a profitable one.

Yes these are generalizations but indicative of trends.

Sorry I didn't mean to turn this into a rant or go off topic.

Saturnalia wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:13 am

An organization can be overall poorly managed and still not really be responsible for an incident. So far, there isn’t much to suggest that NS did anything negligent here.

So who is going to pay the millions, and possibly billions, in lawsuits that are going to come out of this?

Is that the class 1's want the highest operating ratio because money.

That is true for EVERY business. If a business does not make a profit, unlike the Federal Gov't, these businesses will be done. Now if said business is a Corporation, then the Dividend Thirsty Shareholders better get their check, or they go elsewhere. Making a profit is NOT evil.

So, if throwing someone under the bus is what is one is looking for, then there are a lot of candidates.

J T wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:34 pm

Saturnalia wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:13 am

An organization can be overall poorly managed and still not really be responsible for an incident. So far, there isn’t much to suggest that NS did anything negligent here.

So who is going to pay the millions, and possibly billions, in lawsuits that are going to come out of this?

It is still their responsibility, even though I don't think there's much to suggest gross negligence at this point. You don't have to be negligent to be sued necessarily.

R Bedell wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:13 am

Making a profit is NOT evil.

On the surface, no. How you do it can be a different argument

Saturnalia wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:20 am

J T wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:34 pm

Saturnalia wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:13 am

An organization can be overall poorly managed and still not really be responsible for an incident. So far, there isn’t much to suggest that NS did anything negligent here.

So who is going to pay the millions, and possibly billions, in lawsuits that are going to come out of this?

It is still their responsibility, even though I don't think there's much to suggest gross negligence at this point. You don't have to be negligent to be sued necessarily.

Negligence and liability are not mutually exclusive

Are there any damage estimates yet? It's got to be at least in the hundreds of millions.

Saturnalia wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:13 am

An organization can be overall poorly managed and still not really be responsible for an incident. So far, there isn’t much to suggest that NS did anything negligent here.

The Class Ones can be argued to be poorly managed in many ways, but honestly, engineering is not one of them. Wrecking trains is extremely expensive and a major risk to their bottom line, so they’ve poured billions into keeping trains on the track. There are still wrecks - obviously - but the rate they happen has continued to fall.

Here's what NS did that makes them negligent:
-Drastically cut workforce including car mechanical staffing
-Reduced time per railcar inspection in half
-Forced employees to overlook safety and get the job done
-Created a culture of human robots who no longer value their careers and are just simply depressed

It's barely an engineering problem, it's an overall management problem. They sent one regional hazmat guy to go mitigate a whole ass environmental disaster, and managed to make the town uninhabitable in the process. The investors who own them demand this kind of business model, and it's the very reason why railroading as a whole is in trouble.

Also, they totally budget for these incidents to happen. That's the business stategy their Wall St overlords demand. Don't do any continual investment, only try to recruit when the STB forces you to, and deny deny deny. $1,000,000 to the town is laughable. For every citizen that's only $200.

"Sorry we killed your dogs and made your house uninhabitable, but heres $200, go nuts"