NS 364

[rwtrave]

I have a couple questions pertaining to the existence of NS train 364. Despite what I have heard, the 364 has NOT been running for a long time. It is a new train, and it runs west out of Rockport Yard in Cleveland. I don't think it continues straight at Vermilion, but I could be wrong. Rather, I believe it either terminates, or passes through Bellevue. For my NS engineer friend David Mangold, I'd like to know where it runs, when it runs, and if it has a counterpart. Also, why does it have an even-numbered symbol, whilst heading west?

If it is a Rockport makeup, could it just take the "slop" out to Bellevue? Any answers would be greatly appreciated. It has been caught on more than one occasion running behind NS' Yard and Switching power, such as EMD GP38-3's, GP38-2's, GP60's and GP40-2/RDSLUG sets.

Rich

[redside20]

Richard

i'm not quite sure if it does but it might run to Bellevue. There use to be a 364 that ran east out of Bellevue but it was annulled like you said it was and there was also a 348 that was annulled too.

edit
Richard i just saw on Cleveland yahoo groups that a new train symbol has appeared that runs from Bellevue to Rockport. The new train in question is NS Train 324. So we have a 324 and a 364, a train in each direction between Bellevue and Rockport. There is also an new St Louis-Conway Freight NS 14N

[esprrfan]

There is also an new St Louis-Conway Freight NS 14N

Sorry but 14N originates at Elkhart and goes to Conway, had it Monday night all 12+ from Toledo east, sure your not thinking of the 34N that comes off the TRRA at Madison IL?

Now there is a 364 that's a Bellevue-Cleveland out and back turn, is that the one?

[GTWTD3]

I'm not aware of 324, but there is a 364 that is a daily Bellevue to Rockport turn, which was gone for a while due to the recession.

[redside20]

thank you both for clearing that up. I think GTWTD3 and ESPRFAN are right it probably was 34N. I

[rwtrave]

The Rockport to Bellevue turn is more than likely what I'm thinking of, but I have never heard of it before, in all of the years I've been railfanning at Berea and surrounding area. (Don't think I'm one of those railfans that hangs at Berea, because I'm not - it gets boring ). I DO remember NS 133, and have heard of the 348, but never heard of the 364, nor have I heard of the alleged 324.

As for the 14N, I know it exists. It has since about June or July. Dave Mangold has had it several times. It swapped pulls with the 16N.

[thomas]

NS324 used to go west out of elkhart, go to chicago, turn around and come east on the NKP to ft wayne, as a gloified local..but 324 was cancelled i think like 6 months ago..

[redside20]

The Rockport to Bellevue turn is more than likely what I'm thinking of, but I have never heard of it before, in all of the years I've been railfanning at Berea and surrounding area. (Don't think I'm one of those railfans that hangs at Berea, because I'm not - it gets boring ). I DO remember NS 133, and have heard of the 348, but never heard of the 364, nor have I heard of the alleged 324.

As for the 14N, I know it exists. It has since about June or July. Dave Mangold has had it several times. It swapped pulls with the 16N.

348 ran for at least a good three to four years or so and then it was cut back to 3 days a week before it was abolished due to the recession. Its routing took it over the Nickel Plate all the way to Buffalo. i could be wrong but it could've been overflow traffic from 14T

[redside20]

speaking of other NS train symbols, lakeshoredave reports seeing 14M and 15M in his Buffalo reports. How long have these trains been running and what is there destination and origin?

[rwtrave]

The last I shot 348 was in Conneaut back in August 2008 with a NS and BNSF GEVO. It is gone now. The only trains running up and down the former NKP to Buffalo are the 205, 206, 22K, 23K, 14T, 14M, 15M, 309, 310 and 145, plus whatever "bulk commodities" are running. 309 and 310 now pick up and set out in Rockport. They used to go through Lakewood OH.

As for the 14M and 15M, I am not sure what they are, but I can say that I shot 14M at North East PA on the morning of August 30, 2009. I think it will occasionally work the EEC interchange in Erie, PA. Other than that, I am not sure what it is. Could it be the old 14K? I remember 14K used to run up the NKP. Now it has a counterpart - 15K, and runs between Bellevue and Conway.

Rich

(EDIT - Then again, the 14T could be the old 14K; and wasn't the 14K that ran up the NKP the original 146?)

[rwtrave]

After talking to DM, I've learned that the 14M and 15M are Conway to Buffalo trains. They are routed through the NS Youngstown Line, between Youngstown and Ashtabula. Hope this helps.

[redside20]

nope 14T is the old 146

[GTWTD3]

The last I shot 348 was in Conneaut back in August 2008 with a NS and BNSF GEVO. It is gone now. The only trains running up and down the former NKP to Buffalo are the 205, 206, 22K, 23K, 14T, 14M, 15M, 309, 310 and 145, plus whatever "bulk commodities" are running. 309 and 310 now pick up and set out in Rockport. They used to go through Lakewood OH.

As for the 14M and 15M, I am not sure what they are, but I can say that I shot 14M at North East PA on the morning of August 30, 2009. I think it will occasionally work the EEC interchange in Erie, PA. Other than that, I am not sure what it is. Could it be the old 14K? I remember 14K used to run up the NKP. Now it has a counterpart - 15K, and runs between Bellevue and Conway.

Rich

(EDIT - Then again, the 14T could be the old 14K; and wasn't the 14K that ran up the NKP the original 146?)

348 handled Conneaut and BP traffic, I think. I'm 100% positive on the Conneaut part, just not sure on the BP. Towards the end, 348 only ran towards the end of the week.

309 and 310 don't work Rockport, that's what 364 was brought back to do. 309 used to bring ROckport traffic from Bellevue, and 310 would pickup Rockport traffic bound for Bellevue. 364 now does all of that.

14M is Conway to Buffalo, with 15M being the reverse. They are the old PIBU and BUPI from conrail days.

As for the EEC stuff, that can be any of the train depending on where the engines are headed.

[rwtrave]

I understand that any train can handle the EEC stuff, but the primary trains that usually do are the 309, and occasional 145. The 14M will take units from Conway in need of warranty repair, to the EEC interchange. Whenever ready, GE will contact NS, and a westbound (maybe 15M?) will come by and pick the unit up.

309 and 310 did work Rockport prior to the existence of 364. I, as well as several others, have caught 309 and 310 in Berea. This was only during the last few months of operation. They originally ran through Lakewood, OH.

As for the 14T, if it is the old 146, then does that mean it ran as the 14K for a while? The 14T is running on a similar schedule to the old 14K. I'd imagine it is the same train, only with a different symbol, among other things. Like I said before, the 14K (and the 15K) now go towards Conway, and come from Bellevue.

[redside20]

Richard

364 is to Rockport as what 303 is to Fostoria, both are out and back. speaking of 146, I saw on some guys rail blog that he saw an NS 146 out in Illinois a few weeks ago, but how often they've been running again is anyone's guess. i would guess that they would retain there Decatur-Bellevue road schedule if it has been revised. and i would assume that 272 is back to mainly hauling autoracks for the time being. And speaking of out and back. does CSX still send an autorack out of collinwood to Fostoria mixing center? the symbol was 286?

[GTWTD3]

I understand that any train can handle the EEC stuff, but the primary trains that usually do are the 309, and occasional 145. The 14M will take units from Conway in need of warranty repair, to the EEC interchange. Whenever ready, GE will contact NS, and a westbound (maybe 15M?) will come by and pick the unit up.

309 and 310 did work Rockport prior to the existence of 364. I, as well as several others, have caught 309 and 310 in Berea. This was only during the last few months of operation. They originally ran through Lakewood, OH.

As for the 14T, if it is the old 146, then does that mean it ran as the 14K for a while? The 14T is running on a similar schedule to the old 14K. I'd imagine it is the same train, only with a different symbol, among other things. Like I said before, the 14K (and the 15K) now go towards Conway, and come from Bellevue.

Reread what I wrote, it says exactly what you wrote about 309 and 310. They worked Rockport when 364 was abolished. Now that 364 is back, 309 and 310 aren't scheduled to work Rockport.

As for the EEC stuff, what your saying is not correct. This message is beginning to sound like another railfan who wants to argue with the railroader involved in the operation. 14M and 15M usually don't work EEC, as the units from EEC tend to go west, even the warranty repair engines tend to go to Bellevue first. Rarely they will shuttle them from Conway.

[rwtrave]

Where the hell was I arguing? I have seen the 14M work at the EEC interchange before. Sorry if I was wrong. Don't be so quick to offense. I wasn't saying you're incorrect. I also wasn't purposely repeating what you said about 309 and 310 either.

Anyways, as for the CSX autorack that runs from Collinwood to the Mixing Center - I believe it is now what is known as 29E. It comes from Buffalo (although I'm not so sure, now that Frontier is closed) to Collinwood as CSX Q229. It uses the "Lakefront Sub" and connects to NS at DB. This is where it gains the symbol 29E. From then on to the Mixing Center, it uses NS trackage. Not sure on the frequency though.

(Also - a lot of this info about NS symbols comes from a railroader (who I've mentioned several times [he gave me the 14M/15M info - and by warranty units, I'm talking anything as old as the Dash 9's even]). I talk to him quite frequently, and am sorry if he is not the most reliable source. I am only "seconding" what he says.)

[GTWTD3]

Where the hell was I arguing? I have seen the 14M work at the EEC interchange before. Sorry if I was wrong. Don't be so quick to offense. I wasn't saying you're incorrect. I also wasn't purposely repeating what you said about 309 and 310 either.

Anyways, as for the CSX autorack that runs from Collinwood to the Mixing Center - I believe it is now what is known as 29E. It comes from Buffalo (although I'm not so sure, now that Frontier is closed) to Collinwood as CSX Q229. It uses the "Lakefront Sub" and connects to NS at DB. This is where it gains the symbol 29E. From then on to the Mixing Center, it uses NS trackage. Not sure on the frequency though.

(Also - a lot of this info about NS symbols comes from a railroader by the name of Dave Mangold (who I've mentioned several times [he gave me the 14M/15M info - and by warranty units, I'm talking anything as old as the Dash 9's even]). I talk to him quite frequently, and am sorry if he is not the most reliable source. I am only "seconding" what he says.)

You're not reading what I wrote, rather you just want to let me know that you saw the train work once. Re-read what I wrote. Regarding warranty units, I understand what it means to have something covered under warranty, as do most people on this board.

Empty autorack trains are not always given the same symbol, as the empties can and do go to many different destinations. 29E may be the symbol of the month for right now, next month it may be 27J. Don't count the empties to be the same symbol all the time. Look at 11J into Conway, 60% of the time it becomes a 28M for fairlane, but then it may go to Detroit, or Lafayette, or wherever the emtpies are needed to be. 29E isn't a mixing center train, the past months worth of train that were 29e ended up in Detroit. Those CSX autorack trains coming into Cleveland are empty trains, I'm not professing to be an expert on Fostoria, but the mixing center wouldn't require a trainload of empty autoracks. The mixing center is used to re-sort auto loads for various destinations. Hence if you watch 288 or 18N, or any of the other trains there, youw ill see they go in with loads and come out with loads.

I'm sure DM (note to Zack, could you edit out DM's name above) wouldn't want his name thrown around on a message board, nor do I. But no offense to him, he doesn't run on the lines you are mentioning, whereas I am involved with the operations on those lines daily. Just because he is a railroader, doesn't mean that he knows everything about every line out there. I see people doing that way too often. Just because a trainmaster is at Conway, doesn't kmean he knows what's going on in YOungstown. Unless you are talking to someone involved in the day to day operations outside of the T&E craft, I wouldn't rely too much on what they say. I cann't tell you a thing about how a SD40-2 works, because I don't work with them, but I can tell you about the operations because that's my job.

[redside20]

I have to agree with GTWTD3 on this on revealing names on message boards. However if i have a question about operations i can ask people like GTWTD3 or CSXCO they will tell you, just don't reveal there names or act like you know everthing. here is an example.

GTWTD3 i have a question to ask you about the Bellevue-Mansfield Ohio turn. What is the train symbol now and what will happen to it once the GM plant in Mansfield closes? As far as 27J is concerned, i've seen it run through Bellevue and Fostoria from time to time and tends to take racks to Roanoke Indiana or Lafayette Indiana. I thought i heard a 29E through Columbus a few times and i thought i was hearing things and NS changes there symbols like a baby changes diapers. It could've been 29V, but anythings possible i suppose. One more thing, NS did shuttle a rack train to the mixing center a few years ago symboled 286. I don't know if it runs anymore but i came out of Cleveland somewhere through Bellevue and to Fostoria to shuttle racks,then back to Bellevue. what became of it east of Bellevue is beyond me.

[rwtrave]

Never did I once question what you were saying. Either of you two. And I wasn't acting like I know everything either. And the only reason I brought DM's name up, was because I figured had I not, you would've thought I was just going based off of what I saw trackside, and not a somewhat reliable source. Very frustrating that you guys are jumping to offense here. There really is no reason to, and it is highly annoying. Just calm down. I was only sharing information (that I saw, and have heard) with you. But I guess I cannot do that without receiving hassle. What a pain!

I will admit that I am not sure of a lot of Norfolk Southern symboling. (I do know quite a bit when it comes to CSX on the former B&O, and Big Four, and the NS Cleveland Line). Other than that, I am only learning. I was trying to explain that I have seen, and heard, the 14M work at EEC before. I wasn't saying "You're wrong! 14M DOES work at the EEC interchange." Never once did I say anything to that extent! You know why? Because I know for a fact that I am not perfect at the NS symboling. Also, I have no idea who does, and does not work on the railroad in this forum. I only joined about a month ago.

Finally - I removed DM's name from my latest post, but other that, he wanted his name mentioned. (Especially in the original post). He wanted this knowledge. The 364 was up for bid, and he wanted to know more about it. Other than that, I'm done dealing with this. It's a waste of time, and I know for a fact that you guys won't stop "preaching" to me, or otherwise stirring up trouble. And I also know for a fact that one of your guys' next posts will include me being a "newbie to the forum." So, at this point, I'm done.

Goodbye.