train symbols

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Gov. Crappo
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train symbols

Unread post by Gov. Crappo »

curious.....PM\C&O\Chessie\CSX all ran a CHI\DET train of some kind...CSX has Q326\327..GR\TOL Q334\335 etc.....what were Chessie's symbols C&O ...PM...?
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Re: train symbols

Unread post by RailCanon »

In C&O/Chessie days, Q326/Q327 were C&O 942 and 937, respectively, While Q334 and Q335 were TL82 and GR83, respectively. The now abolished Q336 and Q337 also existed as CW16 and FL15, if I remember correctly.
I'm not sure how the Pere Marquette's system worked.

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Re: train symbols

Unread post by CERY »

Whats your source? I am interested in more train symbols for the Plymouth Sub.
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Gov. Crappo
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Re: train symbols

Unread post by Gov. Crappo »

thx Gregg,,,,how far back date wise do these go in C&O years that you know of?...
i hate the interstate and the infernal combustion engine
nothing is sweeter then the smell of coalsmoke in the morning
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BL2-1843
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Re: train symbols

Unread post by BL2-1843 »

When I first moved trackside in Howell on Nov 7, 1970, and have remained at said location for over 38 years now, I began to log, and have continued to do so all these years, trains that have passed by my house. This was almost two years ahead of Chessie System, but long after the C&O/B&O merger in 1963.

Back in those days, the four Toledo trains were called 80,81,82,83, ahead of the years they were noted as GR83 and TL82 etc. Six Detroit train numbers were 31,32,34,35,36,37. We also had jobs and trains that ran out of and to, Flint, and others to and from Sainaw. Two each way out of Flint, one each way out of Saginaw. Can not recall which was which now, but trains 33,38 were changed to 155-156 in late March 1971. In this time period, Flint/Sag trains 133,138 were changed to 157,158. 153,154 were the other two. The last two Flint-Chi trains were MR13 and CW15 westbound and FL14, FL16 eastbound. FL16/CW15 became Q336-337 before they were all cut off.
In "later years" we did get some trains that acutally ran out of Midland/Saginaw called Q332/333.

I got to see four C&O passenger trains a day for a few months here before they ended on April 30th and Amtrak started on May 1, 1971. At the end, there was but one E8A leading one coach and that was it. Morning trains were 11,12, afternoon trains were 14,15.

Feb 1st, 1972 most of the Detroit trains were change from the 30s to the 40s, with two train #44 each day. 34, became 1st 44, while train 36 became 2nd44. Train 42 returned west from Detoit as 2nd 31, while train 46 returned as 37, which number was retained. This was the begining of the advent of eventual trains being called 942 & 937, by 1974 which were Chicago Niagra Falls trains through Canada. 942 at one time was called NI42.

I could go on from 1975 if anyone is interested in train number changes after the 1970-1974 period.

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Re: train symbols

Unread post by Gov. Crappo »

thx Bob...figgered youd know :wink:
what about Turkey trail trains?...or other trains outa Sag like to Baldwin? didnt the Fli\Chi trains run via Edmore?
and not to press...how bout the locals on the Ply sub? late 60's early 70's?...i got shots of the C&O local around '67 switching AnnPere...scans from slides my dad took hope they work.... :P

be nice to tag the symbol...

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i hate the interstate and the infernal combustion engine
nothing is sweeter then the smell of coalsmoke in the morning
"hey are you waiting for a train too?"

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Re: train symbols

Unread post by C&O Dispatcher »

Elmdale Sub trains were 58 and 59 which were mostly through trains and were once scheduled 2nd class freights in the timetable. There were also 22 and 23 which usually set off and picked up at Greenville and Alma and did other local work not handled by the locals out of Greenville and Alma. When they cut off 22 and 23, there was only 58 and 59 which became SA88 and GR87. Saginaw-Baldwin-GRR trains were 239 and 238. For a short time, 239 was renamed B37, B=Barr. They were later renamed MP17 and ML18.

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Re: train symbols

Unread post by Aleks »

NI 42 was a Detroit to Niagara (Falls) train acros Southern Ontario on the former PM tracks with trackage rights on the CASO from St. Thomas eastward.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=266123
CG 41 later DT 41 was the reverse move to Chicago and later Detroit.

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Re: train symbols

Unread post by BL2-1843 »

Gov. Crappo wrote:thx Bob...figgered youd know :wink:
what about Turkey trail trains?...or other trains outa Sag like to Baldwin? didnt the Fli\Chi trains run via Edmore?
and not to press...how bout the locals on the Ply sub? late 60's early 70's?...i got shots of the C&O local around '67 switching AnnPere...scans from slides my dad took hope they work.... :P

be nice to tag the symbol...
Strange, but it must have had a number, but being most familiar with the Plymouth/Trowbridge local as early as the early 1950s, I NEVER knew this as anything other than the "west local" Your photos brings back many memories, for as the BL2 units began to be traded in on the C&O GP30s in 1962, C&O assigned four GP7 units to replace them. They were 5700,5701,5708,5709 as your photo shows.

As stated above, "Turkey Trail" from Saginaw to Grand Rapids, via Edmore and Elmdale, had the train numbers of 58-59, and later changes to GR87/SA88. Trains 145-146 were the numbers of the trains from Grand Rapids to Manistee. C&O ran a train out of Midland to Chicago via the Balwin sub as MP17 (Missouri Pacific) and ML18 (Midland) During summers, when doing track word on the Ludington sub, MP17 ran via the Plymouth sub. Seems like the once a week chemical train out of Midland with all the dangerous tanks on it that everybody made a big deal out of when it passed through their town was known as train 239. That one, after they closed down the line from Midland to Baldwin, came the Plymouth sub often.

Two of the Saginaw/Ludington trains were known as TL74/LU75. A dedicated train from Saginaw to Carlton was known as SA31 and CA30. Detroit to Saginaw trains were known as SA61/DT62, and SA63/DT64. Flint to Toledo trains were known as TL54/FL55. Toledo/Saginaw/Pt.Huron trains were known as SA37/PH77.

I'll see what else I can dig up.
Last edited by BL2-1843 on Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: train symbols

Unread post by Gov. Crappo »

so "west local" ran out of Ply.....d709 did to i believe right?......whatever local worked trowbridge to where ever west?....did it run out of Ensel?
i hate the interstate and the infernal combustion engine
nothing is sweeter then the smell of coalsmoke in the morning
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Re: train symbols

Unread post by BL2-1843 »

Gov. Crappo wrote:so "west local" ran out of Ply.....d709 did to i believe right?......whatever local worked trowbridge to where ever west?....did it run out of Ensel?
This is why I rely on my daily log sheets, as at my age my memory fails to much. My last post info regarding train numbers of other Michigan line trains, was passed onto me by my eldest son who now lives in South Dakota, who at age 41 is still as sharp as they come for memories, and lives for the days past, as things once were, not as they are now. I called him to ask, and he gave me these numbers right out of his head, but has all of this info on computer at his office. Me? I'd have to look it up.

That said, I would have to search my logs to be sure, but in my memory I do not remember D709 operating out Plymouth. I do recall, at some time period, the locals were cut off all the way between Plmouth and Grand Rapids and a train did all the local work between these two towns. The train did all the switching eastbound, and westbound every other day. I do not recall if the train came out of GR for instance and ran eastbound Monday Wednesday and Fridays, and back west on Tuesdays, Thursdays or Saturdays, or, the other way around. Regardless, it did not work and was short lived. I do not recall in my mind the exact time period when the "west local" out of Plymouth ended, and started operating out of Ensel. Perhaps CSX Dispatcher can tell us, as I would be interested in entering this back into my memory banks. Seems to me as well, that the local work between Grand Rapids and Ensel was run out of GR in the early days, and perhaps called the "east local".

I did later find in my daily log sheets that it was mid August 1977 when westbound trains out Detroit were changed to ICG3, ICG5, and CG41, and eastbounds as DT10, DT12, and despite what was said earlier that NI42 was a Detroit to Niagra Falls only train, my records shows NI42 as running eastbound from Grand Rapids, if not all the way from Chicago with this number. It was this same time period when Flint/Chicago trains became known as MR13/CW15 westbound, and FL14/FL16 eastbound.

Gregg Pullano asked me many of these same questions several years ago and researched this info for him, and his records, but find myself doing the same all over again from scratch, which I do not mind, because its good for my memory to be sharpened.

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Re: train symbols

Unread post by Gov. Crappo »

my former TM and some of the oldheads at Ensel would talk of 709 as it was running out of Ply.....maybe they were just refering to the old "west local"....just real curious as there must have been a ton of local work Ply to Ensel late PM thru early C&O/B&O...heck my GLCS circa 1939 has to have a local based in Howell to assure timely service :wink:

another question Bob....or anyone....CSX pretty much has a system wide symbol system for trains...Q for road trains D for locals K,G,N for various unit trains etc etc....did the trains listed..31 thru 37 for example...fit in a "system" wide numbering within C&O\B&O?....or was it more divisional in nature...
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Re: train symbols

Unread post by Aleks »

I have journals from NI 42 out of Rougemere so I knew it at least came from Detroit but as CG 41 went to Chicago I would have to assume that since NI 42 was the reverse train, I don't doubt that it came out of Chicago. I just knew that it least came out of Detroit. When CG 41 became DT 41 the origin of NI 42 may also have changed.

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Re: train symbols

Unread post by Aleks »

As supplied by a former Chessie employee & railfan who worked on the Ontario side.

Through freights -
eastbound NI-42, daily, to Buffalo; on duty Detroit approx 1am
westbound CG-41, daily, to Chicago; on duty St Thomas approx 1am
Extra trains as required, such as unit coal trains, or Second41 or Second 42.

SA-37, daily exc. Sunday, St Thomas to Sarnia; performs necessary work between St Thomas and Sarnia; on duty approx 1500
PH-42, daily exc Mon, Sarnia/St Thomas; performs necessary work; on duty approx 1500.
These were later resymboled as SA99 and ST98.

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Re: train symbols

Unread post by Aleks »

NI - Niagara [frontier]
CG - Chicago
SA - Sarnia
ST - St Thomas
PH - Port Huron
DT - Detroit

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Re: train symbols

Unread post by odave »

Jackpot! This is info I've been wondering about for awhile.

Thanks for sharing, guys! :D

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Re: train symbols

Unread post by BL2-1843 »

Checking further this morning through 38 years of daily logs sheets, I have discovered the date that the Plymouth "West Local" first started operating out of Ensel. It was Nov 15, 1982. However, it was not until Jan. 18, 1988 where I made my first reference to D709, as D709 on my daily logs. Perhaps it could have been called that long before, but because I had always referenced "west local" out of Plymouth as "local" I continued to just call it that despite having a train number. Also, it WAS just prior to this 11-15-82 start up date to run locals out of Ensel that they attempted to run a local from GR/Plymouth eastbound one day and back to Grand Rapids westbound the next. This lasted but three weeks.

Actually, there are far more industries now than there was back in the 50s/60s, as far as switching goes. Back then, the local crew actually unloaded merchandise freight out of railway boxcars into the freight house building at each town along the line. I used to help them unload freight as a pre teen out of the cars into the freight house building which was located directly across and slightly east of the Howell depot. Chalked on the inside of the box cars were each town where the freight to be unloaded was located. Brighton, Howell, Fowlerville, Williamston etc. Any other "old timers" out there that recalls this? This alone took up as much time as actual switching chores.

Here in Howell, we had Cleveland Metal Abrasives, just east of Dearborn Street which had two sidings, one on each side of the plant. They loaded scrap into gons on the east side, and some type of product into box cars on the west side. Two grain elevators were located in town. One just east of Michigan Ave. on the north side, while another just east of Dearborn on the south side, which still remains today, albeit no tracks into it anymore. Cornell Lumber used to get supplies of brick and lumber to unload frequently which was spotted on the spur west of Dearborn that ran into Cleveland Metal. Other than that, there was nothing else but Ann Pere interchange traffic. I don't believe Fowlerville, or Willimaston had any thing more than small grain elevators and freight houses. Brighton had nothing but Hyne Lumber, just east of Main Street untill later years when Thermofil first came to the area, and Export Corp right next door. Am not sure what South Lyon had.

In my last, I refrenced the current, at that time train numbers between Chicago/Detroit has having changed to ICG3, ICG5, CG41 westbound, and NI42, DT10 and DT12 eastbound. While a last poster refered to CG41 as refering to mean "Chicago" which it could very well be, I always assumed, like ICG3 and ICG5, that the letters represented "Illinois Central Gulf" to which I knew traffic on these trains were routed to, and the CG41 had to have the "I" dropped off of it because the computer could hold only a combination of four digits or numbers.

Regardless, ICG3 and ICG5 were gone by mid 1980 leaving only two trains left in each direction between Det/Chi. CG41 and its counterpart DT10 were gone by mid 1982, leaving only 937,942 left. July 1st, 1987 was the start up date for the current train numbers as they exist today, 942,937 became R326,R327, TL80 and TL82 became R334,R335 and FL16 and CW15 became R336,R337. While CSX did have some dedicated freight service trains listed as "Q" trains from the begining, Michigan trains were not amung them. It would be several years later before all merchandise freights were reclassed to become "Q" trains system wide.

My son in South Dakota wrote this morning to elaborate more on my questions to him from last night. He replies by saying: I am attaching what I told you last evening I had. I thought that this was posted somewhere on the Michiganrailroads.com site still. But I cannot locate where this morning. Seems to me Doug Hefty posted this information two years ago and I kept a copy for myself it was so good. I do not have an actual date on this either. Based on the trains though, I would say 1980, or just ahead of the 1980-1982 recession. This list does have some trains missing too. Like there is no DT12/ICG5 or FL14. (Which was the first pair of Detroit trains to go and then FL14 was combined into FL16) It shows NI42 only going to Detroit as well. A lot of changes happened in that 1980-1982 recession. Zoom in on it and get your good reading glasses on and you should be able to make out all the trains. From the what went thru Howell department in the late 1970’s (when times were still good) I thought it went like this:

TL80/GR81 Walbridge-GrandRapids
TL82/GR83 Walbridge-GrandRapids

942/937 CP Rail run-thru train Detroit to Chicago
NI42/CG41 – Niagra Falls to Chicago
DT10/ICG3 – Detroit-Chicago
DT12/ICG5 – Detroit-Chicago

FL14/CW15 Flint-Chicago (Freight)
FL16/MR13 Flint-Chicago (AutoRacks)

Then during the summer months when they did track work on the Ludington Sub, we’de also get MP17/ML18 as well. So we would have 16 daily freights thru Howell. Oh, and can you believe all the trains thru Flint???? What 19 freights a day??? No wonder I long for those days.

The chart of Doug Hefty's he refers to shows all of the trains operating in the greater Michigan area in the early 80s but came as an attachment and do not know how to attach it to this.

Getting back to the original posters question on what the train numbers were back to the PM days, while my daily log sheets reference trains since 1970 when I first moved here, I also have kept a daily journal since the early 50s when I was VERY young, which also had train reference in it. Checking back through that, I have discovered Det/GR freights being listed as in the "40s" (40,41,42,43,44 etc and GR/Toledo freights as in the "80" (80,81,82,83) that these numbers carried through from the PM days. Morning passenger trains were numbered 2 & 3, while the afternoon trains were numbered 6 & 7" On my first reply to this, I mentioned in 1970, GR/Det freights were numbered in the "30s" but later most went to the "40s" My memory is now refreshed that they were in the "40s" originally, before going into the "30s" and then later reverted back to the "40"s again

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Re: train symbols

Unread post by CERY »

So there were 16 through trains but what were the symbols for the locals on the Plymouth Sub?
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Re: train symbols

Unread post by C&O Dispatcher »

I worked the Saginaw side, so I can't really expound on the Plymouth Sub locals. Until we went CSX, the locals did not have symbols, just decriptive names. We had the Saginaw-Holly Local (turn), and road switchers that worked out of Grand Blanc, Wixom and Wayne. The Sag-PH Local was the "East Local", and there was the "Mt Pleasant Local" that ran either Sag to MtPl or Sag to Clare and back. We also had the "Ludington-Evart Local (turn). As far as the South End train symbols, many have already been mentioned here. At one time there we 2 sets of trains between Walbridge and Flint: FL55, TL54, A396 & FL57. Between Sag-Tol were southbounds DIXIE, 396 & TL74, and northbounds were
SA79, PH77 & LU75. At one time there was a Tol-Wixom train that ran north as WX33 and south as TT32. Also a Walb-Plym turn that was short-lived called PLTA (Plym Turnaround.) As mentioned there were 2 sets each direction Tol-GRR, Rouge-Sag and Rouge-Tol. Then there was all the Essexville and West Olive coal loads and mtys and the grain trains. McGrew yard also ran various yard jobs to Atwood and Kearsley. As stated, after we became CSX the locals had the "D" (Detroit Divn) prefix. The two trains on the Bad Axe Sub Sag-BX and visa versa were 806 and 803 and the east end out of BX was just called the "Croswell Local." I think most of the CSX locals were in the 700 series,
e.g. D-741, etc.

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Re: train symbols

Unread post by Gov. Crappo »

Bob M. wrote:
Here in Howell, we had Cleveland Metal Abrasives, just east of Dearborn Street which had two sidings, one on each side of the plant. They loaded scrap into gons on the east side, and some type of product into box cars on the west side. Two grain elevators were located in town. One just east of Michigan Ave. on the north side, while another just east of Dearborn on the south side, which still remains today, albeit no tracks into it anymore. Cornell Lumber used to get supplies of brick and lumber to unload frequently which was spotted on the spur west of Dearborn that ran into Cleveland Metal. Other than that, there was nothing else but Ann Pere interchange traffic. I don't believe Fowlerville, or Willimaston had any thing more than small grain elevators and freight houses. Brighton had nothing but Hyne Lumber, just east of Main Street untill later years when Thermofil first came to the area, and Export Corp right next door. Am not sure what South Lyon had.

thanks again Bob...did Cleveland Met. become the "Pepsi" plant?...when did the fuel dealer that butted up to Michigan Ave on the north side of the tracks quit?....i remember the old house track being there south of the main...i remember the track to the fuel dealer running north of the station....with a team track??..as first constructed Howell was the western terminal for the Detroit & Howell....you would think more of the trackage would have lasted into the later 20th century...
Brighton had at least 5 industries at the east end of the pass at some point....west of Forth street south side of the tracks theres 2 "old" industries (or 1 big one) served of 1 spur, one is a pipe\fence place now i think..the lumber yard on Main st...across the tracks from the old lumber yd is spur to some small old factory or some such, i remember when they took that switch out around '98..and i know what is now Refridgeration Reasearch had a spur...and there was a team track\freight station (i think)...im sure there must have been but i dont ever recall seeing a picture of an elevator in Brighton..
the "house track" in So. lyon used to be the lead to something but none of the oldheads i talked to could fully remember....got conflicting stories on it...
i hate the interstate and the infernal combustion engine
nothing is sweeter then the smell of coalsmoke in the morning
"hey are you waiting for a train too?"

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