86 foot hi cube boxcars

[iNFEKT]

I love seeing these all over Detroit, especially after realizing most other areas don't have them. My understanding is many of these should be coming up on their end of life soon. I found myself pretty fascinated with their unique qualities and being so prominent here. Was hoping to consolidate what I know about them into one thread and see if anyone else knows more. I figured this would warrant it's own thread since these seem to be mostly on the way out and they're pretty common in Michigan and pretty much Michigan only

So what I do know:

Really good writeup here: https://www.tangentscalemodels.com/gree ... r-box-car/
as well as some other good threads:
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/ ... ?2,4362812 Maybe some of the best info here
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/ ... ?1,3934564
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/ ... ?3,4769411
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/ ... ?3,4769411
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/ ... sg-3804279
http://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=205138

Mostly made by Greenville Steel approximately ~4400 made
Production run from 1964-1978 which I'd guess with rebuild would put end of life for these to 2014 to 2028. Though I've also read in some threads that these were built/delivered through the 80s. Unless they are to remain on their home lines and not interchange (seems unlikely) I assume most of these are on the way out, and likely many have already been scrapped and in five years or so there will likely be done left?

They seem to have all been repainted from the original customers and now mostly exist in CN, Conrail, NS, GT/GTW and Illinois Central livery.

Where they go

They seem to move around frequently in Detroit, from what I've gathered they're going to the Ford Brownstown Redistribution center, Ford River Rouge Plant, Detroit Regional Distribution (which is part of the Oakwood NS yard), Chrysler Warren Stamping plant, Chrysler Stamping Plant in Sterling Heights and Stellantis Assembly plant in Sterling Heights.

Other reports seem to indicate they go to the Ford plants in Buffalo, Chicago Heights and Claycomo, MO, Mahwah, NJ (no longer active), Lordstown, OH (no longer active) Pico Rivera, CA (no longer active), Milpitas, CA (no longer active)

Some fairly recent reports: NS runs daily train 181 out of Detroit that consists of 70-80% high cubes destined for the Ford truck plant at Claycomo,MO. The empties return on 120 and 122. Also, NS runs a night time local daily except Saturday from the GM stamping plant at Marion,IN to the truck plant at Roanoke,IN that is entirely high cubes, usually 9-15 boxes daily.

We see these cars daily on CN trains # 421 & 422 from Buffalo to Toronto.
Still going strong painted CN,GTW,IC,DT & I, NS, CSX etc

They're obviously super long, so mostly for lightweight autoparts: stampings, gas tanks various parts etc. I also heard at times they were used for transporting appliances for GE and in some cases hay/alfalfa, bottles, insulation and in Battle Creek -- cereal.

This post on trainorders seemed to provide a lot of context as to their fate:

The shrinking number of 86-foot Hi Cube boxcars is a result of changes in the auto industry. The Big 3 used to have many "stand alone" stamping plants that made particular parts that were distributed throughout the country. The Big 3 also had assembly plants on the East and West coasts. That was the business model in the 1960's and 1970's, and virtually all the Class I carriers maintained fleets of 86-foot and 60-foot Hi Cube boxcars for auto parts. The famous Southern Railway train known as the "Sparkplug", from Cincinnati to Atlanta, handled large numbers of such loads going to the GM and Ford assembly plants near Atlanta. The B&O/Chessie train 396 handled blocks of auto parts loads to assembly plants at Baltimore and Wilsmere. Conrail operated trains that were scheduled around large volume moves of auto parts, such as COLT/LTCO to and from the GM plant at Lordstown OH. Or the famous "Ford Fast" trains that operated on the Rio Grande and Western Pacific, handling auto parts to the California assembly plants. The 86-foot boxcars were ideal for that business, as the racks with the various body panels needed plenty of cubic capacity, but were relatively lightweight. There were actually more 60-foot boxcars in the auto parts business, as GM preferred 60-foot cars for alot of their moves.

But beginning in the 1980's, the Big 3 began moving away from that model, and the "stand alone" stamping plants began to close. Instead, the preferred model was to have a stamping plant adjacent to assembly plants, which eliminated the need for moving the body panels. Another factor was the closure of all the East and West coast assembly plants. All of those plants used to receive large volumes of auto parts. The need for 86-foot boxcars has fallen considerably, and that car type has proven rather difficult to adapt to other lines of business. There still are some moves of auto parts (from GM Parma OH Stamping plant, for example), but the auto parts business is only a shadow of what it once was. The rail industry ended up with a huge excess supply of 86-foot boxcars, and many of the older cars have been retired. I believe the last 86-foot boxcars were built sometime around 1980, and those cars could last until about 2030, if there is a use for them. There may not be a need to ever build any more.

The foreign-based companies that built automobiles in the U.S. (Toyota, Honda, etc), never moved auto parts by boxcar. They typically have stamping plants right next to the assembly plants. Any parts that have to move into their assembly plants from other locations move by truck or intermodal container.


I tried to do all my research before posting, but I wonder what anyone else can add about these unique (to us) cars. The way I see it, Auto companies aren't building new plants in the US, so they'll need something to ship these parts around and the rail infrastructure is there, but these cars have <10 years left in them, so will they just switch to trucks or smaller cars, or maybe something new will come along (wishful thinking)

[Chip]

I work in the auto industry, in the body shop of the Bronco plant to be specific, and I’ll tell you this; almost nothing comes in by rail anymore. The only thing we get by rail is frames. Literally everything else that isn’t made on site (which is only body stamping and even then it’s only a fraction) is tricked in.

[Saturnalia]

Another big factor in auto parts is the advent of intermodal, and the increasingly huge number of third party suppliers to the manufacturers. It's a lot easier to book intermodal shipment on already-premium trains, when the Class Ones really don't care to make anything about their manifest networks "premium" or "expedited", in the case of just-in-time delivery, provide anything resembling a guaranteed delivery window. The use of intermodal containers also allows the plants to switch out what parts they need without needing a switch from the railroad, which are expensive and time-consuming. Rather, a small army of hostler drivers can keep the boxes shuffled and drayage drivers can take the boxes to and from the nearest intermodal ramp.

This obviously goes for not only the massive 86' boxcars, but the smaller general-service ones as well.

I personally love the look of the 86' boxes, they look so long even with Autoracks being longer, due to their lesser height dimensions. They also stick out like a sore thumb in the middle of today's manifest network littered with 60' Hi Cubes.

[Chip]

I intermodal is too unreliable and inconsistent with just in time delivery the way the big 3 implement it. Not once have I ever seen a container backed into once of our docks. Not even when we had 2 Mustang Mach-E bodies shipped to us for some reason. It’s all traditional semis.

[iNFEKT]

I work in the auto industry, in the body shop of the Bronco plant to be specific, and I’ll tell you this; almost nothing comes in by rail anymore. The only thing we get by rail is frames. Literally everything else that isn’t made on site (which is only body stamping and even then it’s only a fraction) is tricked in.

This is exactly what I figured, which seems to be why most of the recent plant builds have been bringing stamping on site. I guess that makes me wonder how much longer these cars will stick around regardless of age. With age I assume they have to be gone in five years tops?

I guess when they age at the few plants that rely on them just switch to trucks/intermodal? Is my understanding on how much longer they have left correct?

[Chip]

This is exactly what I figured, which seems to be why most of the recent plant builds have been bringing stamping on site. I guess that makes me wonder how much longer these cars will stick around regardless of age. With age I assume they have to be gone in five years tops?

On-site stamping doesn’t mean what it used to. Ford used to stamp 100% of their own parts, and now at least 50% of that is farmed out to venders. What most people don’t understand is stamping doesn’t just mean stamping out sheet metal parts, it also means building sub-assemblies like doors, hoods, tailgates, floor pans, etc. At my plant the only stamping we make on site are the Bronco and Ranger doors, Bronco Hoods, Bronco swing gates, Bronco inner quarter panel assembly, Ranger box side, Bronco/Ranger dash panels (firewall), Ranger Cowl assembly, Bronco fenders and Ranger and Bronco front floor pan assembly. Literally everything else is made either by a vendor or at the Woodhaven plant (which to my knowledge is just the Ranger fenders, Bronco floor pan skins and Bronco exterior panels minus the quarter panel. All of those parts are brought in by truck. Neither the stamping building or body shop has a rail spur on site anymore, though you can see what’s left of the old spur to the body shop on google earth.

I guess when they age at the few plants that rely on them just switch to trucks/intermodal? Is my understanding on how much longer they have left correct?

I have no idea what your first question means so I’ll address the second one. To my knowledge the only plant around here that still uses those 86’ cars is Dearborn Stamping and because they ship parts to Kansas City, Louisville KY, and Avon Lake, OH I don’t know they will cease any time soon as long as they haven’t reached the end of their service life and cant be refurbished to last another 15 years.

[iNFEKT]

I guess when they age at the few plants that rely on them just switch to trucks/intermodal? Is my understanding on how much longer they have left correct?

I have no idea what your first question means so I’ll address the second one. To my knowledge the only plant around here that still uses those 86’ cars is Dearborn Stamping and because they ship parts to Kansas City, Louisville KY, and Avon Lake, OH I don’t know they will cease any time soon as long as they haven’t reached the end of their service life and cant be refurbished to last another 15 years.

Sorry I meant, when these reach end of life, which by my estimates even with a rebuild should be 2028, the few plants that rely on them, I assume would just have to switch to trucks or intermodals. I don't assume they're going to make any new cars to replace them at this point even though they are in use.

I listed off all the places I've seen them, and even a quick glance on google maps seems to show the 86' in the yards in the northern suburbs as well at Chrysler etc as well as up in Flint

All the boxcars in the Avon Lake yard look to be the smaller format.

[Chip]

They might ship via truck to Avon Lake, it’s only about a 4 hour drive from Dearborn. The one part our north side makes for them is tricked out.

[joeyuboats]

A question about DT&I hy- cubes. I remember seeing some that were a light purple, and others that were a dark green. Were they painted that way to differentiate different plants, or customers, or some other reason?

[AARR]

I think initially they were used at different plants/traffic lanes but eventually got mixed.

A question about DT&I hy- cubes. I remember seeing some that were a light purple, and others that were a dark green. Were they painted that way to differentiate different plants, or customers, or some other reason?

[chapmaja]

The business model used by the automotive industry absolutely changed throughout the 1980's until today (and even before then)

Several things happened.

First, many of the products that were once made by in house factories for the big three were outsourced to other companies due to competitive pricing issues. These new companies, some of whom bought the original plants from the big three, others who built new facilities, often had lower costs to operated (largely salaries) than a in house plant. Often times these supplier plants were located within a relatively short distance of the destination assembly plant, putting rail at a competitive disadvantage.

Second, production effeciency. Production effeciency increased significantly over the years, meaning more equipment could be produced within a given period of time at both the assembly plant and the supplier levels. As this metric improved, the companies adjusted their timing for production and utlization of facilities.

Third, which piggybacks off the second point, was the transition from warehouses to stock parts of the plants, to just in time delivery. Many of those trains mentioned in the original post were not destined for manufacturing plants themselves, but to a warehouse to store the parts until they were needed by the manufacturer. Often times this warehouse was part of the assembly plant complex. As production effeciency evolved and the effeciency of just in time delivery became apparent rail needed to be able to adjust their methodology for handling this traffic. With only a few exceptions, rail has not faired well in the just time time delivery market for many reasons.

Finally, with just in time delivery / lack of warehouses the railroads simply can't compete in many industries including automotive. One area which the railroads have actually done very well in as rolling warehouses is the plastic pellet industry. There are huge railyards which are basically rolling warehouse storage yards for plastic pellets. This allows producers to produced a significant number of pellets, load them into railcars and habnd them off to a railroad, who transports them to a storage yard. Once in the storage yard, the pellets are kept there until they are needed and can be sent to a manufacturing facility or transload to be unloaded for a customer. Some industries even use railcars as their storage bins on site for plastic pellets. If you go to a plant like Rhe-Tec in Whitmore Lake, I am pretty sure there are cars on their siding that have not turned a wheel in years. They act as a storage bin for the inbound products until they are needed for manufacturing. Why would a company do this? The lease rate for the car is likely so low that it would cost less to lease the car semi-permanently than to build and maintain a storage silo on site.

Back to the earlier days of the automobile industry. How many areas in Michigan have a connection to the automobile industry? Dexter alone has two that I know of. One, the more obvious one, is located at Zeeb Rd and Huron River Drive. Thgis used to be a Chrysler plant, which did get rail service. I'm not 100% sure, but I think on the Google Sat. view of this plant you can still see rails in the pavement on the driveway behind the plant. The second, lesser known connection is what used to be the Mill Pond, and is now Mill Creek in Dexter (which has a nice trail along it). This pond was created, like many others in southeast Michigan to serve Ford's interests in the region. The pond was created by the dam that was recently (within about 10 years) removed from the site (under the bridge on Main St.) Many towns and cities in southeast Michigan have "Ford Lakes" because of the interests of the Ford Motor company.