CSX Rail Grinder questions

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LansingRailFan
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CSX Rail Grinder questions

Unread post by LansingRailFan »

1. Do the rail grinder crews have a train ID similar to when other work trains run?

2. Do the Loram rail grinders use a CSX engineer and conductor as pilots?

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Re: CSX Rail Grinder questions

Unread post by Talk »

LansingRailFan wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:23 am
1. Do the rail grinder crews have a train ID similar to when other work trains run?
Per SD80MAC in another thread;

They do not use a train symbol, rather they act more like a track vehicle/HiRail

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kd_1014
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Re: CSX Rail Grinder questions

Unread post by kd_1014 »

They get track authority acting as MOW equipment, or at least that's what I heard on the superscanner last night.

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Re: CSX Rail Grinder questions

Unread post by SD80MAC »

Echoing what Kaden said I said, lol. I believe they do have CSX personnel (like a Roadmaster) on board, but they do not use engineers/conductors. To CSX its just a big piece of on-track equipment, not a train. Not sure if other railroads treat them the same way or not.
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Re: CSX Rail Grinder questions

Unread post by Saturnalia »

Rail Ginders are treated as MOW equipment, as far as I know, to simplify their track authority.

CTC absolute signals only confer authority to move in one direction, so the dispatcher would need to be contacted anytime they need to back up, which is frequent, in many cases. Giving them an EC1 allows them to get authority to move in both directions, solving this problem. That’s not to say they don’t ever get directional track authorities, but usually they will get both directions unless there is a good reason to do otherwise. For instance, you want a directional order if you will be meeting another train going the opposite way, or will have one following you. That way you can get “do not foul limits ahead of” authority or whatever specific speak whatever railroad uses.

They also often roll with more than one grinder, the second handling crossings and switches while the larger production grinder does the rest. They also usually have hirail trucks with them too. If the rail grinder was a train, they would have to do train-MOW coordination which consumes a lot of time and effort both in orders and over the radio. Making them MOW means that they just operate such that they can stop within one half the distance seen to be clear, and keep a minimum distance from other equipment. They can also have overlapping authorities with other MOW crews as well, and are more easily handled in Work Zone limits.

So basically it’s to simplify their handling for everybody. I suppose when they are travelled a great distance it would make sense to run them as a train, and perhaps sometimes they are. But as far as I know that would require a qualified engineer and pilot crew, whereas MOW can stick with MOW. That and the dispatcher can just give them whatever chunk of territory they need, and if they need to back up or whatever they don’t need to talk to the dispatcher except as noted above.
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Re: CSX Rail Grinder questions

Unread post by kd_1014 »

With the EC-1, does the dispatcher still line them through absolute signals? Or do the absolute signals stay red because they got an EC-1 instead?

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Re: CSX Rail Grinder questions

Unread post by Steamlogger »

I watched the Rail Grinder head East through Grandville last night. They passed the EAS signal while it was red.
The small grinder was doing turnouts and crossings. In the video of the small grinder at Century Ave the grinder had just passed East over the crossing them reversed West to the crossover between Century and Grandville Ave. Then continued East and did similar at the Graham Street crossing by Buchanan Ave.
I have three videos from both grinders on YouTube.
https://youtu.be/v4xDDFo43uE
https://youtu.be/H3BuOqXvuk0
https://youtu.be/a5bOce_vfpY

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Re: CSX Rail Grinder questions

Unread post by Saturnalia »

kd_1014 wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:45 pm
With the EC-1, does the dispatcher still line them through absolute signals? Or do the absolute signals stay red because they got an EC-1 instead?
EC-1 is a form of authority in the same way absolutes are in CTC. If you have a clear signal on the WAS Grandville, Main 2, it is the same for a train as having an EC1 authority from WAS Grandville, Main 2, to the WAS EE Hudsonville, in the west direction.

Absolute signals showing other than stop give you permission to proceed to the next absolute signal, or end of CTC limits. It confers the authority to move to that location in the direction you take the signal. However, it cannot give you both directions, so if you need to reverse for whatever reason, dispatcher permission is required.

A key thing to remember is that signal systems replaced track warrants which replaced or functioned with timetable authority, so they work in the same way but effectively automate the process. Absolutes confer authority to move while intermediates keep safe spacing for trains moving in the same direction while providing for broken rail detection.

So for the rail grinder, the EC1 supersedes signal authority - if it can even get signal authority, most MOW vehicles simply cannot. In times of a signal failure or signal cutover, there will be a Dispatcher Bulletin (Form C in GCOR) detailing the signal outage, and you’ll get EC1s through it. Often the signal crews will have the dispatcher line signals for the trains anyway when bringing a new system online to test it, but the trains completely ignore them while the signal suspension is in effect.
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Re: CSX Rail Grinder questions

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I don't recall ever having a rail grinder in operation when I was dispatching, but most on-track equipment (like a hi-rail truck) does not even shunt the rail. Therefore, some kind of OTE authority is required. CSX uses the EC-1 Form, other railroads use different methods--some call it issuing "track and time." You first have to "block off" the territory for which you are giving them authority. In the "old days" you would use a blocking device on the signal levers governing movement into the territory from each direction. On "newer" CTC panels, there was a separate schematic on the model board into which plugs could be inserted that caused a red light to appear in the absolute block section/s on the model board. In either case, you could then no longer line a signal into the "blocked out" territory. Then you gave the employee the authority to occupy that section of the railroad, and they could move in both directions if necessary. For hi-rail track inspector moves, you could have them report by specific control points and then shorten up the authority. Of course today, the computer system sets up the blocking as directed by the dispatcher. Below is a photo of a portion of our "south end" machine we used in Saginaw. Above the regular track display, you can see the area with little input holes where you inserted a "plug" to block off absolute track sections (and power switches if necessary). Once the plugs were inserted and the red light appeared on the track section/s, you could not line a signal into it. (I'm sure at some point, I finished off that bottle of "red pop!") 8)
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Re: CSX Rail Grinder questions

Unread post by Dan Cluley »

If the dispatcher is not lining signals for the grinders would the dispatcher be able to line up switches, or would someone on the ground have to do that manually?

I don't know about the signal circuits, but both grinders were activating the crossing gates normally.

However they control things, they are certainly efficient. Last night they ran down the main at Trowbridge, backed up, and then did the siding as well ( including crossing the CN a couple of times) in less than 45 minutes

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Re: CSX Rail Grinder questions

Unread post by C&O Dispatcher »

I presume, based on my experience, the dispatcher could still line power switches, (upon request, of course).

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Re: CSX Rail Grinder questions

Unread post by Saturnalia »

Dan Cluley wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:16 am
If the dispatcher is not lining signals for the grinders would the dispatcher be able to line up switches, or would someone on the ground have to do that manually?

I don't know about the signal circuits, but both grinders were activating the crossing gates normally.

However they control things, they are certainly efficient. Last night they ran down the main at Trowbridge, backed up, and then did the siding as well ( including crossing the CN a couple of times) in less than 45 minutes
As C&O Dispatcher stated, the dispatcher can still line power turnouts upon request. I do believe that contemporary computerized dispatching software typically prevents dispatchers from lining switches within Track and Time/EC1 authority, unless they verify that they’ve spoken with the crew. It’s basically a popup reminding them that there’s T&T in effect.

Rail Ginders are built like trains so they will shunt the track just like any other train. Crossings have no problems with them at all. But Hyrail trucks generally suck at it, even though they generally come equipped with shunts you can turn on or off from the cab. A lot of MOW guys don’t even use the shunts normally, to avoid crossings from deactivating as they’re approaching. Some won’t use them at all and will just cross the road when it’s clear. Others will come to a stop just short of the crossing then turn the shunts on to activate the crossing, allowing them to scoot across before they deactivate in case they do before they are in the clear.
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Re: CSX Rail Grinder questions

Unread post by C&O Dispatcher »

That shunt option is interesting. They didn't have that back in my day. Time marches on! :)

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