Critical Information Posted to Boards

[~Z~]

Received the following email from our own Bob Thatcher...he asked if I could post this on the board.

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Zack,

Over the past few days, I have had discussions with the two top officials of Lake State Railway Company. Among the topics were their concerns over very sensitive information that some railfans are posting to message boards. In particular, some postings are referring to railroad employees by name, the presence of hazardous materials loads in trains and alleged defective conditions of rolling stock.

While observations of “Train X with engines 1, 2 and 3 went by such & such location with a bunch of hoppers at about 2:00 PM” are no big deal, a posting of “Train XX went by with three loads of phenol at about Noon” certainly is a problem.

Even before 9/11, Iraq, etc., there was always the risk of people with real or perceived grudges against railroads, vandals or psychopaths attempting to commit some destructive act. Nowadays, we can add people who think they should make a political “statement” or even genuine terrorists. To provide these people with the information needed to commit a destructive act can only be characterized as irresponsible. To post employee names on a message board (where they or their families may become targets of some demented individual) is no better. The only exception would be if the employee gave prior permission.

LSRC has also been experiencing problems with “railfans” poking around rail facilities and even climbing on equipment.

LSRC management and employees have a touch of railfan at heart and they want to remain friendly to railfans, but they have a business to run. An act of sabotage with a release of hazardous materials would endanger railroad employees and the surrounding community.

I have been asked to pass along the following: If sensitive information such as that described above continues to be posted to message boards, LSRC may be forced to ban anybody not on official business from LSRC property. If train consists noting the presence of hazardous materials shipments continue to be posted, they may refer the matter to the Department of Homeland Security.

Please post a message to your message board (probably at “Lower Michigan Talk”) with the above-described concerns. You can copy it right over or paraphrase, but the point to emphasize is that a few irresponsible people may spoil it for everyone.

In order to get the information spread as wide as possible, I will send similar messages to several message board moderators. Thanks for your help.

Bob Thatcher, President

Bluewater Michigan Chapter NRHS

[patrick]

Mr. thatcher i sent a PM to your account. Please email me at my email addy tcaauwe2002@railroadfan.com ASAP.

[sd70accsxt700]

And once again, my response to the LSRC, or any one else for that matter of fact, would be that if this junk, was such a hot topic, then why hasn't Saginaw been blown off the map, while I was working there, or before? This is just another case, of 9/11 histeria. Any one who is that serious about it, already knows what is going on, before we post it. For example, any one that get stopped by a train, can 75% of the time, read what the tank car contains, just by reading it at the end of the side of the car. Look at the hundreds of LPG tanks, that travel to Pt. Huron, that clearly say Liquefied Petroleum Gas, on the side. So the general public, ( and terroisits, and any one wanting to start something "political" as they say), can read it right there, but we cant post it, for fear of Homeland Security, being called. Sorry Zack, but blow off LSRC. We don't need this type of intimidation by the railroads. As for the subject of names, the LSRC person who started all of this, still didn't know what he was talking about. He gave out misinformation, and the company is going to believe him no matter right or wrong. So yes, you should stay away from the LSRC, in fact don't watch them, photograph them, or ect., I find it funny that all I have seen so far is a LSRC employee, attacking the rail fans, not the other way around. The only LRSC employee, that I have ever seen mentioned, is Al, and if he had a problem, I would think that he would say something, but considering that he posts here himself, I have dobuts he would. If you read the origonal post that started this whole mess, (and I have read it many times, the only two persons names to be mentioned in it, are Mike H. and me. So what LSRC employee, got mentioned in it, I cant seem to figure out. I work for CSX, and Mike H. dosent work for a railroad, yet as far as I know (and that was of last week). It is also funny that all of this has started as far as I can tell, since they took over opperations on former CSX trackage, by some former CSX employees. I have my own theorys as to why this is, but I am not getting into that right now. As far as people trespassing, kick them out, we have now had our fair warning, shame on people who go into a rail yard, and climb on equipment. On this subject I agree, I myself have see to many stupid people, (part of the reason I don't post on the other site anymore, people who claim not to and then clearly do it, you can see it in there photos). I too have started to call these people in. It is idiots like these, who ruin it for all of us. Also take note, that instead of the company coming forward and asking, or addressing this information to us, they had to do it by way of messenger, that is not even part of the LSRC company (sorry Bob, this is not meant as a attack on you, just stating the facts). I have for a very long time realized, that this is a one way street, we take all the photos, and such, and the railroad gets nothing from us, but if this is the way they are going to act, they I for one can just as easily, not ever watch or give any care about there company again.

Matt Smith
Where I work for the other company, and I don't give out misinformation, about rail fans, unless I know what I am talking about.

P.S.
This is not meant to start a long list of responses, or ignite a war, these are just my feeling on the matter at hand.

[patrick]

Let me very simply say, I made some inapproperate comments and used the name of a LSRC rail employee. I will be sending the president of LSRC operations a letter. The LSRC has always been very good with railfans so I guess i'm not sure why now all of a sudden they have a bug up their butts.

[Scooterb]

Over the past few days, I have had discussions with the two top officials of Lake State Railway Company. Among the topics were their concerns over very sensitive information that some railfans are posting to message boards. In particular, some postings are referring to railroad employees by name, (You listen to the scanner its pretty easy to get names)
the presence of hazardous materials loads in trains and alleged defective conditions of rolling stock. (Like Matt stated you can look at sides of cars know what industries are on line you can pretty much get an idea of whats on the train.) (If I had a defect in my train I would appreciate if someone brought it to my attention- example Fostoria a couple weeks ago someone reported a wheel burning on the train as the train came to a stop the axel broke in half)

While observations of “Train X with engines 1, 2 and 3 went by such & such location with a bunch of hoppers at about 2:00 PM” are no big deal, a posting of “Train XX went by with three loads of phenol at about Noon” certainly is a problem. (So the terrorist will look at a disscussion board and the time the train went by and hurry up to do something,...... Most need more planning than that.)
Even before 9/11, Iraq, etc., there was always the risk of people with real or perceived grudges against railroads, vandals or psychopaths attempting to commit some destructive act. Nowadays, we can add people who think they should make a political “statement” or even genuine terrorists. To provide these people with the information needed to commit a destructive act can only be characterized as irresponsible. To post employee names on a message board (where they or their families may become targets of some demented individual) is no better. The only exception would be if the employee gave prior permission.

LSRC has also been experiencing problems with “railfans” poking around rail facilities and even climbing on equipment. ( If anybody behaves like that by all means turn them in and have them arrested once word gets out you will have no more problems)
LSRC management and employees have a touch of railfan at heart and they want to remain friendly to railfans, but they have a business to run. An act of sabotage with a release of hazardous materials would endanger railroad employees and the surrounding community.

I have been asked to pass along the following: If sensitive information such as that described above continues to be posted to message boards, LSRC may be forced to ban anybody not on official business from LSRC property. If train consists noting the presence of hazardous materials shipments continue to be posted, they may refer the matter to the Department of Homeland Security.

Please post a message to your message board (probably at “Lower Michigan Talk”) with the above-described concerns. You can copy it right over or paraphrase, but the point to emphasize is that a few irresponsible people may spoil it for everyone.

In order to get the information spread as wide as possible, I will send similar messages to several message board moderators. Thanks for your help

I thank Mr. Thatcher for brining this to our attention in this way but I think alot of this comes from a certain poster that was banned from this site and has a grudge.

Also have yet to see this posted on any other boards

SCott B.

[redside20]

I think the biggest concern among the LSRC would be loss of a customer and everyone else for that matter. Just look at what the president has done, he has brainwashed everyone into worrying about terrorism and Iraq when he should be concerned about jobs leaving this country. Hey we lose thousands of jobs every day like its no big deal to him

[GTWTD3]

Well guys, these posts don't do anything to help us. Writing these messages back and forth to each other female dog doesn't do a darn thing to help us out. Rather, educating those who don't understand our hobby will help us out immensely. First off, all railroaders have seen idiot railfans. Within 3 months of working Dock Tower in New Jersey, I saw a railfan walking around on Amtrak's property and taking pictures of the bridge. He got yelled at, and was lucky that the cops weren't called. As for posting consists, I love keeping track of that stuff. As many of you saw, I kept detailed notes of how TSBY operated through Owosso. But, you've got to be careful what you say. There seems to be a mind set in the railfan hobby that "I have a right to do this, darn" and that's just not true. We all have a right to take pictures of trains, take notes, etc. We don't have a right to trespass. I for one commend LSRC for taking the steps they have taken. LSRC could have contacted the law firm of dumb person and dumb person, but instead tried to solve the matter in a way that keeps all parties involved happy. As for saying that LSRC should contact us directly, frequently the best way to handle things are through back channels. Anyone remember the cuban missle crisis? Lots of back channel communication there. That's because once things become formal, people get involved that will muddy the things up. I think this is a great oppurtunity for those of us who truly want the railfan hobby to prosper to take this even as a way to grow ourselves. I think too often we forget that railroads are in the business of moving traffic, not giving us good pictures.

[Garry K]

Unfortunately, the bad attitude as exhibited by the reply of "sd70accsxt700" only hurts other railfans. When a business gives folks a warning to mind your manners or risk the consequences of losing access to the rail facilities, it would be in the interests of *ALL* of us railfans for ALL of us to comply.

Yes, terrorists could could simply go out and watch the trains, but why make their information gathering easier by telling them that train X usually runs at Y hours past point Z, and it usually has hazmat cargo.

I remember a year or two ago someone posted on a discussion, asking the question how one could go about derailing a train. Fortunately, the moderator killed the thread, and warned folks against answering such a question on the web where *anyone* could see it. Now, no doubt lots of folks know how to derail trains, not to mention know how to improvise explosives, etc, but for the folks who *don't* know how, let's not make their jobs easier especially if they have malevolent intent.

GaRRy K

[Kevin]

The problem I had with the railroad guy is how he came across. If that person represented LSRC, he didn't do it very well. Putting himself in jerk status didn't help his case either. The way I see it if we don't try to come to a happy medium and work with LRSC or any other RR in some way, we will all suffer. If we can't reach some sort of aggreement to benefit MOST everyone, then someone will make rules for us that will jeopardize some of the things railfans are allowed to do and I don't want to see that happen. My opinion is we can't stop people from climbing on railroad equipment taking pictures and posting, Zack can stop them from being posted. If people are listing load types Zack can also stop that too. If this is all it will take to make the RR happy, then I for one will do what I can to help. LSRC should also take the proper steps necessary if there is a problem that needs to be fixed and not let people like "Railfan" do it for them. One way I can think of is a link to Zack or an alternate (Patrick) from a RR representive to let us know if the information is geniune or not. If we can all help out in some way, that is better than someone making rules for us to adhere to and that everyone has to follow which will make our hobby difficult and take the fun out. My 0.20

Kevin