New Grand Rapids Amtrak Station - Vern J Ehlers

[railohio]

Name the defensive tackles for the Baltimore Colts in 1969.

[J T]

What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

[Ben Higdon]

Godfrey/Pleasant/Market Plant by MQT3001

Nice mapping skills! I spent untold classroom hours drawing track layouts. Mostly copying the style of Conrail ZTS charts though.

[Standard Railfan]

This whole station location is a mess, did I tell you that before

I have been thinking about the layout of the track into the new Amtrak station. As has been pointed out, the access is a bit awkward. The seemingly logic choice would have been to run the track from the station across Century Ave. and tie onto the No. 1 main west of the station.

IIRC MDOT has taken a position of "No New Grade Crossings". If that is the case, the explanation for the station layout makes more sense. RDD, can you comment on the grade crossing policy?

[Raildudes dad]

This whole station location is a mess, did I tell you that before

I have been thinking about the layout of the track into the new Amtrak station. As has been pointed out, the access is a bit awkward. The seemingly logic choice would have been to run the track from the station across Century Ave. and tie onto the No. 1 main west of the station.

IIRC MDOT has taken a position of "No New Grade Crossings". If that is the case, the explanation for the station layout makes more sense. RDD, can you comment on the grade crossing policy?

FRA's goal is to reduce the number of crossings. MDOT Rail Safety has adopted that philosophy and then added to install a new crossing, the jurisdiction must close another with less than 100 Average Daily Traffic. Having said that, I have designed and gotten approval to construct 3 new crossings without closing one. Having interacted somewhat with the project manager on this project, I doubt they even thought of asking. Furthermore, the spur, if it did cross Century, would see 2 - 5 car? trains a day at no more than a walking speed. Cross bucks would be sufficient for that crossing. I'm sure the PM would have designed full gates and flashers

Just one horrid waste of taxpayer funds, it might be tolerable if it had been a good design but.............

[J T]

I'm curious to hear the opinions of the crews who have now used the station three full days. They seem to have departed quickly and flawlessly the two days I witnessed it. Didn't passenger trains do reverse moves all the time to come in the depot spurs? Take Grand Haven, for example. Talk about a reverse move! But anyway, aside from the way the train comes into the station (which I personally don't have an issue with), I think it's a great looking station and platform.

[trnwatcher]

What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

African or European?

[Ben Higdon]

I'm curious to hear the opinions of the crews who have now used the station three full days. They seem to have departed quickly and flawlessly the two days I witnessed it. Didn't passenger trains do reverse moves all the time to come in the depot spurs? Take Grand Haven, for example. Talk about a reverse move! But anyway, aside from the way the train comes into the station (which I personally don't have an issue with), I think it's a great looking station and platform.

I think the backup move you are referring to would be to the GTW depot in downtown Grand Haven. GTW trains would have pulled into and out of there on their way to/from the swing bridge without a backup move. The C&O depot was/is right on the C&O main track.

Did the GTW ever have a station at the end of the spur that served the Grand Rapids Press, before the existing depot on their main track was built?

[PM1946]

The old GTW depot stood where the main post office stands today.

[Standard Railfan]

Didn't passenger trains do reverse moves all the time to come in the depot spurs?

Many passenger depots used to and still do require reverse moves. Chicago Union Station is an example familiar to many of us.

[Raildudes dad]

Didn't passenger trains do reverse moves all the time to come in the depot spurs?

Many passenger depots used to and still do require reverse moves. Chicago Union Station is an example familiar to many of us.

My point is this one didn't need a reverse move if they only faced the switch the other way.

[J T]

I think the backup move you are referring to would be to the GTW depot in downtown Grand Haven. GTW trains would have pulled into and out of there on their way to/from the swing bridge without a backup move

How did they get to and from the station without a back up move? The tracks ended near the station, no?

[J T]

My point is this one didn't need a reverse move if they only faced the switch the other way.

Where the new station is, that seems like it would have been a pretty sharp curve. Would there have been enough room with the placement of the platform or would they have had to build the station closer to the Wealthy overpass (eliminating the parking lot)?

[GR Ron]

The signal aspect for P370-30 to "back west" into the station at Pleasant St. was red over red over white. I have not seen that aspect up here before.

[SD80MAC]

The signal aspect for P370-30 to "back west" into the station at Pleasant St. was red over red over white. I have not seen that aspect up here before.

That's a "restricting" aspect according to CSX's "Seaboard rules", which is becoming the system-wide standard. It is used a lot up here but mostly going into yards where railfans wouldn't necessarily be able to few the signals.

[dmitzel]

Red over lunar is a pretty common restricting indication - seen it on BNSF as well. The western roads like the lunar aspect (or flashing red) for a restricting indication, versus the red over yellow (NORAC and older rules) pattern often used in the East. Restricting is a permissive display to enter unsignaled or low-speed track, such as a dead-end spur there at GRR.

Maybe CSX is changing to align with their future western marriage partner? whomever that will end up to be. Sorry, couldn’t resist

[Saturnalia]

I am no railroader, but I like the idea of Lunar for restricting because yellow can be confused with approach aspects. Since lunar is only used for restricting (at least on CSX), you know anytime you see white it is restricting...no exceptions. This keeps with the green = clear, yellow = approach, all-red = stop formula, which again I think makes it easier to read and for there to be fewer mistakes. But that's just me

[Schteinkuh]

I am no railroader, but I like the idea of Lunar for restricting because yellow can be confused with approach aspects. Since lunar is only used for restricting (at least on CSX), you know anytime you see white it is restricting...no exceptions. This keeps with the green = clear, yellow = approach, all-red = stop formula, which again I think makes it easier to read and for there to be fewer mistakes. But that's just me

Some railroads use red over flashing red too.

[GR Ron]

That's a "restricting" aspect according to CSX's "Seaboard rules",

Dang here comes more southern influence first gray now lunar. (At least gray is disappearing, for now) I would think that lunar would blend in with background street lighting etc. Maybe my old eyes.... But then the amber street lighting..... Can't win. Change keeps it interesting but....... Miss the good old days too.

At least there are signals to be seen, new ones at that. Vs. gone.....

OK enough selfish rambling

[CSX_CO]

I am no railroader, but I like the idea of Lunar for restricting because yellow can be confused with approach aspects. Since lunar is only used for restricting (at least on CSX), you know anytime you see white it is restricting...no exceptions. This keeps with the green = clear, yellow = approach, all-red = stop formula, which again I think makes it easier to read and for there to be fewer mistakes. But that's just me

Back when crews from one railroad, running over the rails of another railroad, wasn't as prolific as it is now, it wouldn't have been a big deal. C&O railroaders will argue the C&O had the best signal system, and you'll hear similar arguments from each individual railroad. So, having different aspects and indications wasn't a big deal when a crew may never have to run on another railroads signal system. Usually the color light signals are just a carry over from the semaphore signals they replaced, in a lot of cases aspect for aspect, to eliminate the need for engineers to relearn the entire signal system.

Considering how many were color blind (they were able to get by looking at the position of the semaphore blades) a lot of them went off the position of where the light was illuminated in the head, and thus the strict adherence to which light is which color on signal heads. PRR knew of this problem, and that is why the chose amber yellow for their signals. It was the least likely for someone to be 'yellow' colorblind, and the position of the lights mimicked their semaphore signal indications so those colorblind engineers wouldn't be at risk of losing their jobs, or causing accidents.

All that being said, I share you sentiments on lunar, but there is one (sometimes big) problem. It is one that has plagued "lunar" signals from the start. How to get a true 'lunar' color. Incandescent bulbs give off 'yellow' light, so there had to be a lens in there to make it really 'lunar' instead of an 'yellowish white'. For the glass makers in the 1910's and 1920's when the color light signals started into vogue, the colors were hard to make consistently, 'lunar' especially. Too much 'blue' and it looks like a blue signal, which means something entirely different. Not enough color, and when you mix in the 'yellow' light given off from the bulbs, you get a green looking color, which again, is very bad. Those problems continue today. I remember signals on the Garrett and Willard subs that the 'lunar' looked really blue, and sometimes had a 'greenish' tint to it. We referred to those as "Buffalo Clears" in reference to a Buffalo crew mistaking the 'lunar' restricting for a medium clear (because of the slight greenish tint) shortly after split date.

So, yes, lunar is a good 'restricting' signal, but only if the people making the lenses can consistently get a 'lunar' color. With 'white' LEDs possible, it is probably easier than ever to do a 'lunar' but most of the Class I's are hesitant to adopt LED wayside signals because of the problems inherent in them. Mostly, because of how efficient they are, they don't give off heat. Great for efficiency, but that heat given off by that lamp also melts snow and ice off the lenses. With the 'cool' LEDs, you have to call a maintainer to remove that ice and snow buildup that a regular bulb would be able to 'melt' off.

Practice Safe CSX