Southern Michigan Railroad Society report

[SousaKerry]

Wow I had not realized that the crossing was taken out way back in 1982. Thank you for the added information and history, things really get twisted on these boards sometimes based on grains of truth and word of mouth.

[CSX_CO]

Just lost a little bit of respect for the N&W.

Diamonds aren't cheap. They saw an opportunity, and while it was shrewd, and maybe a touch dirty, they took advantage of it.

After 20+ years of no diamond, anyone would be hard pressed to convince the STB that the diamond there was 'necessary'. I don't know what the statute of limitations for railroad crossing at grade agreements are, but I would bet if someone had a need for the diamond, the NS could argue, and maybe successfully at that, that a new agreement should be drawn up with the crossing railroad with NS being the 'senior' road now.

ITM in Noblesville, Indiana faces a similar situation. The connection on the north end of the line is 'cut' at Tipton, IN. On the south end, CSX has removed the diamond on the NE Belt Running track across the Indianapolis Line at CP 280. When the signal replacements come in the next year, or so, CP 280 is going to be eliminated completely. Currently, ITM has no connection to the outside world. The diamonds were removed in 2007 or 2008. It was a CSX line, crossing a CSX line, and no customers on CSX were impacted. Further complicating the situation is that ITM is also just a 'tennant' on the line, with the actual former IMC owned by a Port Authority. Port Authority showed no interest in maintaining the outside connection, as no customers on the line receive cars. Last 'revenue' movement was sometime in the early 2000's when a power plant on the north end of the line switched to Natural Gas. Any track materials had been trucked over recent years, so CSX could argue that the diamond removal does not impact ITM. So, any attempt at ITM to reconnect to the national network would probably be met with stiff resistance from CSX, or some sort of 'switch' arrangement could be made.

Practice Safe CSX

[jrgerber]

But didn't CSX take out the diamond in Defiance Oho and then had to pay latter to put it back in?

[MQT1223]

Just lost a little bit of respect for the N&W.

Diamonds aren't cheap. They saw an opportunity, and while it was shrewd, and maybe a touch dirty, they took advantage of it.

After 20+ years of no diamond, anyone would be hard pressed to convince the STB that the diamond there was 'necessary'. I don't know what the statute of limitations for railroad crossing at grade agreements are, but I would bet if someone had a need for the diamond, the NS could argue, and maybe successfully at that, that a new agreement should be drawn up with the crossing railroad with NS being the 'senior' road now.

ITM in Noblesville, Indiana faces a similar situation. The connection on the north end of the line is 'cut' at Tipton, IN. On the south end, CSX has removed the diamond on the NE Belt Running track across the Indianapolis Line at CP 280. When the signal replacements come in the next year, or so, CP 280 is going to be eliminated completely. Currently, ITM has no connection to the outside world. The diamonds were removed in 2007 or 2008. It was a CSX line, crossing a CSX line, and no customers on CSX were impacted. Further complicating the situation is that ITM is also just a 'tennant' on the line, with the actual former IMC owned by a Port Authority. Port Authority showed no interest in maintaining the outside connection, as no customers on the line receive cars. Last 'revenue' movement was sometime in the early 2000's when a power plant on the north end of the line switched to Natural Gas. Any track materials had been trucked over recent years, so CSX could argue that the diamond removal does not impact ITM. So, any attempt at ITM to reconnect to the national network would probably be met with stiff resistance from CSX, or some sort of 'switch' arrangement could be made.

Practice Safe CSX

Isn't on the NS side of things just a paved crossing disconnecting ITM from the outside world? Cause I bet that ITM would like to see 587 outside on NS rails again.

[CSX_CO]

Isn't on the NS side of things just a paved crossing disconnecting ITM from the outside world? Cause I bet that ITM would like to see 587 outside on NS rails again.

No. Diamond at Tipton is removed. From the former diamond south for probably 1/2 mile the track is gone, and looks like ROW has been reclaimed. Any connection track is on the north side of the diamond. NS has said they do not want to install the diamond again, so you can pretty much count out ever going north to get to the NS.

They need all the Kings Men, and All the Kings Horses to get humpty dumpty back together again before they can even think about taking it off line. They're making progress but on its last run they really messed up the cylinders on the backup move. Plus, with NS's recent...um...troubles (not that recent if you aren't blinded by the heritage and steam kettles) who is to stay they run steam again in the next couple of years?

Practice Safe CSX

[MQT1223]

Isn't on the NS side of things just a paved crossing disconnecting ITM from the outside world? Cause I bet that ITM would like to see 587 outside on NS rails again.

No. Diamond at Tipton is removed. From the former diamond south for probably 1/2 mile the track is gone, and looks like ROW has been reclaimed. Any connection track is on the north side of the diamond. NS has said they do not want to install the diamond again, so you can pretty much count out ever going north to get to the NS.

They need all the Kings Men, and All the Kings Horses to get humpty dumpty back together again before they can even think about taking it off line. They're making progress but on its last run they really messed up the cylinders on the backup move. Plus, with NS's recent...um...troubles (not that recent if you aren't blinded by the heritage and steam kettles) who is to stay they run steam again in the next couple of years?

Practice Safe CSX

I can see 587 running on NS again, with CSX cooperation, which won't happen, so unless things with the NS side can improve or a new route is improvised 587 is stranded.

[Clay320]

Just lost a little bit of respect for the N&W.

How much of the old Tecumseh Branch was offered? Check this link out, you might like it.

http://www.abandonedrails.com/Tecumseh_Branch

The whole thing I believe, From the diamond in Tecumseh is where what is today's ADBF/NS interchange connection in Adrian

[MQT1223]

Just lost a little bit of respect for the N&W.

How much of the old Tecumseh Branch was offered? Check this link out, you might like it.

http://www.abandonedrails.com/Tecumseh_Branch

The whole thing I believe, From the diamond in Tecumseh is where what is today's ADBF/NS interchange connection in Adrian

Dang, that's a lot of track. Its too bad that the line wasn't saved. Again, lost some respect for the N&W.

[Robert MacDowell]

A side note on the diamond, the story I heard from someone involved in the SMRS at one point was that a group of the members found out about an NS OCS going through on the wabash line and decided it would be a good idea to take a bunch of speeders down and wave in order to try and get ns to let them put the diamond back. As the train rolled by apparently the exact words of the NS official on board were "H*** NO!". I always found this story funny, and would imagine it might not be too far off

Confirmed. I heard the story right after it happened. Supposedly he was discussing something else, and came upon the stack of speeders on one side, and the RS-2’s and other equipment on the other, all honking their horns... stopped mid-sentence to say "No F**ing way".

Nonetheless, it's NOT a grudge, it's NOT personal, it's just plain reality. NO railroad museum in North America has a live diamond with a Class I railroad. It is simply not possible owing to the sheer cost of maintaining the structure, which is in the ballpark of a million bucks a year. And the staggering liability and regulatory issue (what would FRA demand of each of us to even allow this?) the final coffin-nail being PTC.

California State Railroad Museum acquired a track along the Sacramento River, at right angles to the Cal-P, which crosses the Sacramento River on a drawbridge Right There 30 feet from the diamond. 36 Amtraks a day across that! Their diamond was also pulled, and a "panel track" was dropped in on-demand, *even though there was still freight being switched down the line*. Like I say... NOBODY gets a diamond.

On the other hand, freight is a totally different story. What I've heard is that if there was active freight on this line, there'd be a diamond, which is the "asterisk" that got CSRM its panel track (and also Maumee/Western or whatever they call it now at Defiance.) However, freight introduces even more complications for SMRS, because the FRA regulations would suddenly become extremely burdensome, most particularly the paperwork requirements.

Question: Just Hard Is It For SMRS To Patch Things Up With NS? I know they don't get along not so well with ADBF, but surely they can TRY to do better with NS. ...
YES, SMRS IS Different In Their Only Way, but in-order for them to Move Forward they NEED to FIX their Relationships With Neighboring Railroads.

There really is no need to patch things up with NS. NS wouldn't want anything to do with it anyways, it's an idea that died long ago.

That idea was stillborn, no, that little sperm never even made it to the egg. Like I say, diamonds are impossible. SMRS's strategic mistake in 1985 was not realizing that. Now that reality has set in, SMRS gets along with NS just fine, and they have been very supportive.

Just lost a little bit of respect for the N&W.

How much of the old Tecumseh Branch was offered?

The whole thing I believe, From the diamond in Tecumseh is where what is today's ADBF/NS interchange connection in Adrian

SMRS already owned the DT&M inside Tecumseh which ended at Union Street. NS offered from there to an arbitrary point in downtown Adrian, beyond which NS would retain ownership. I don't recall there being anything in the agreement that would prevent NS from abandoning a few more thousand feet and leaving SMRS landlocked all over again.

Now here's the other twist. SMRS had no idea how to pay the mortgage on the NYC Jackson Branch. If SMRS had taken the DT&I, it would be ours free-and-clear in its fractured state. Think about the goods and bads of that. (bad: if SMRS was staring down hard at the next mortgage payment, the temptation would be "let it go, we saved the DT&I.")

[ns8401]

A side note on the diamond, the story I heard from someone involved in the SMRS at one point was that a group of the members found out about an NS OCS going through on the wabash line and decided it would be a good idea to take a bunch of speeders down and wave in order to try and get ns to let them put the diamond back. As the train rolled by apparently the exact words of the NS official on board were "H*** NO!". I always found this story funny, and would imagine it might not be too far off

Confirmed. I heard the story right after it happened. Supposedly he was discussing something else, and came upon the stack of speeders on one side, and the RS-2’s and other equipment on the other, all honking their horns... stopped mid-sentence to say "No F**ing way".

Nonetheless, it's NOT a grudge, it's NOT personal, it's just plain reality. NO railroad museum in North America has a live diamond with a Class I railroad. It is simply not possible owing to the sheer cost of maintaining the structure, which is in the ballpark of a million bucks a year. And the staggering liability and regulatory issue (what would FRA demand of each of us to even allow this?) the final coffin-nail being PTC.

California State Railroad Museum acquired a track along the Sacramento River, at right angles to the Cal-P, which crosses the Sacramento River on a drawbridge Right There 30 feet from the diamond. 36 Amtraks a day across that! Their diamond was also pulled, and a "panel track" was dropped in on-demand, *even though there was still freight being switched down the line*. Like I say... NOBODY gets a diamond.

On the other hand, freight is a totally different story. What I've heard is that if there was active freight on this line, there'd be a diamond, which is the "asterisk" that got CSRM its panel track (and also Maumee/Western or whatever they call it now at Defiance.) However, freight introduces even more complications for SMRS, because the FRA regulations would suddenly become extremely burdensome, most particularly the paperwork requirements.

Question: Just Hard Is It For SMRS To Patch Things Up With NS? I know they don't get along not so well with ADBF, but surely they can TRY to do better with NS. ...
YES, SMRS IS Different In Their Only Way, but in-order for them to Move Forward they NEED to FIX their Relationships With Neighboring Railroads.

There really is no need to patch things up with NS. NS wouldn't want anything to do with it anyways, it's an idea that died long ago.

That idea was stillborn, no, that little sperm never even made it to the egg. Like I say, diamonds are impossible. SMRS's strategic mistake in 1985 was not realizing that. Now that reality has set in, SMRS gets along with NS just fine, and they have been very supportive.

Just lost a little bit of respect for the N&W.

How much of the old Tecumseh Branch was offered?

The whole thing I believe, From the diamond in Tecumseh is where what is today's ADBF/NS interchange connection in Adrian

SMRS already owned the DT&M inside Tecumseh which ended at Union Street. NS offered from there to an arbitrary point in downtown Adrian, beyond which NS would retain ownership. I don't recall there being anything in the agreement that would prevent NS from abandoning a few more thousand feet and leaving SMRS landlocked all over again.

Now here's the other twist. SMRS had no idea how to pay the mortgage on the NYC Jackson Branch. If SMRS had taken the DT&I, it would be ours free-and-clear in its fractured state. Think about the goods and bads of that. (bad: if SMRS was staring down hard at the next mortgage payment, the temptation would be "let it go, we saved the DT&I.")

I haven't been down there or a member in about 6 years, simply too far away these days, what has NS done that is supportive? For that matter what interaction is there at all with them?

That the removal was or wasn't personal is a matter of opinion depending on who you ask... I've heard some who still hold a grudge and took it personally and others that have moved on.

[Robert MacDowell]

Sure, you'd expect people to hold a grudge about that, i"m only saying that NS does not appear to.

About 10 years ago they donated something like 3000 ties contingent on prompt pickup at trackside. SMRS dropped the ball and didn't pick them up, so NS moved half of them to a depot location, and were moved to downtown Tecumseh. The notion was that they'd be fairly promptly put in track, possibly in a mass project rather than one at a time. That didn't happen and the tie pile has not visibly shrank in 10 years. Which is a shame because I think if we had shown we were using them, there would have been followup donations.

Donors are not ATM machines, they want to see results. An outfit that demonstrates a pattern of using gifts well, will get more of them.

The ride was decent 10-15MPH max pulled by the #75 GE44-tonner one coach a gondola and 2 cabooses. We rode the open air gondola with bench seats down the middle of the car. The train was not sold out but was a bit chilly yet so most people were in the coach. Only one Caboose was occupied and I am not sure why they had the second one as it didn't look like it even had seats in it.

It's included because it's well equipped as a "shoving platform". It still has its original Edison Cell battery, tail marker, new LED headlight and solar panel to keep the battery up.

The last serious work was done in 1987 so it really needs more work to be presentable to the public, and even then it could only seat about 8. We use it as an uh-oh car, like when we urgently need a few seats to solve a customer satisfaction issue. It also seats about 16 if there's a sudden downpour and a gondola full of people want to get out of the rain.

Yeah now that is a problem... then why not get rid of it for some cash? Last time I checked the Michigan Southern could use a little extra. And when I say get rid of it I mean sell it to another organization that will cherish it and use it.

The problem is "who". Michigan is pretty thin on quality railroad museums.

- Shortlines? no, they go out of business a lot, and then bad things happen to their collections.
- Coopersville? Kinda out of territory and they're a tenant of a short line, so, same problem.
- Michigan Transit Museum? No cash, no safe site, nowhere to run it.
- Saginaw? Won't run there.
- Henry Ford? They coulda had it with the snap of their fingers and passed. They would "stuff and mount" it, it'd never be a runner.
- Project 1225? Maybe, but they're shrinking their collection not growing it, they already deaccessioned D&M #10 to SMRS.
- Illinois Railway Museum? Why not, everything else went there. Their Michigan collection is better than any Michigan museum, but there is no critical-mass of Michigan fans, so the units just sit unloved. They're non-priorities in a massive 450-car collection.

Now SMRS did buy a bunch of land, which is exactly what IRM did that made them so successful. We'll have to see how that unfolds.

[SD80MAC]

Since when is Coopersville the tenant of a shortline? They own their line.

[MQT1223]

Sure, you'd expect people to hold a grudge about that, i"m only saying that NS does not appear to.

About 10 years ago they donated something like 3000 ties contingent on prompt pickup at trackside. SMRS dropped the ball and didn't pick them up, so NS moved half of them to a depot location, and were moved to downtown Tecumseh. The notion was that they'd be fairly promptly put in track, possibly in a mass project rather than one at a time. That didn't happen and the tie pile has not visibly shrank in 10 years. Which is a shame because I think if we had shown we were using them, there would have been followup donations.

Donors are not ATM machines, they want to see results. An outfit that demonstrates a pattern of using gifts well, will get more of them.

The ride was decent 10-15MPH max pulled by the #75 GE44-tonner one coach a gondola and 2 cabooses. We rode the open air gondola with bench seats down the middle of the car. The train was not sold out but was a bit chilly yet so most people were in the coach. Only one Caboose was occupied and I am not sure why they had the second one as it didn't look like it even had seats in it.

It's included because it's well equipped as a "shoving platform". It still has its original Edison Cell battery, tail marker, new LED headlight and solar panel to keep the battery up.

The last serious work was done in 1987 so it really needs more work to be presentable to the public, and even then it could only seat about 8. We use it as an uh-oh car, like when we urgently need a few seats to solve a customer satisfaction issue. It also seats about 16 if there's a sudden downpour and a gondola full of people want to get out of the rain.

Yeah now that is a problem... then why not get rid of it for some cash? Last time I checked the Michigan Southern could use a little extra. And when I say get rid of it I mean sell it to another organization that will cherish it and use it.

The problem is "who". Michigan is pretty thin on quality railroad museums.

- Shortlines? no, they go out of business a lot, and then bad things happen to their collections.
- Coopersville? Kinda out of territory and they're a tenant of a short line, so, same problem.
- Michigan Transit Museum? No cash, no safe site, nowhere to run it.
- Saginaw? Won't run there.
- Henry Ford? They coulda had it with the snap of their fingers and passed. They would "stuff and mount" it, it'd never be a runner.
- Project 1225? Maybe, but they're shrinking their collection not growing it, they already deaccessioned D&M #10 to SMRS.
- Illinois Railway Museum? Why not, everything else went there. Their Michigan collection is better than any Michigan museum, but there is no critical-mass of Michigan fans, so the units just sit unloved. They're non-priorities in a massive 450-car collection.

Now SMRS did buy a bunch of land, which is exactly what IRM did that made them so successful. We'll have to see how that unfolds.

I wish a new tourist line that is actually committed would spring up in Michigan. We need a Strasburg-style line, even if it is a smaller operation. I don't like Coopersville and Marne lines that have no initiative. Sure you can argue money is an issue, but how committed is the CPMY of actually trying to raise donations? The effort they did telling the public about 75 last year was absolutely pathetic, and could've been a huge payoff for them.

Since when is Coopersville the tenant of a shortline? They own their line.

But yeah, Coopersville and Marne owns the line up to the diamond at Ann St. GRE or MM no longer has any affiliation with the line west of GR.

[SousaKerry]

We need a Strasburg-style line, even if it is a smaller operation

Good luck with that. It helps to have a huge amount of bored tourists who are tired of looking at Amish all day, a huge state sponsored tourist museam across the street. And within day trip distance to Philly, Baltimore, Washington, New York, Harrisburg, and the entire East Cost not just sparsely populated lower Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana.

I travel through that area quite often on business, and I was born near there. Trust me population density of Rural Eastern Pennsylvania is better then some of our cities. If a field isn't an Amish farm and at a 60° slope there is 30 houses on it.

[cnw8835]

But yeah, Coopersville and Marne owns the line up to the diamond at Ann St. GRE or MM no longer has any affiliation with the line west of GR.

Well that will be news to the GRE that they don't even own their own yard.

Also, 50 some posts in, it should be noted for the record that this thread is about the Southern Michigan, not the Michigan Southern. Completely different railroads on opposite sides of the state.

[SD80MAC]

No, this thread is about the "Miching Southern"!

[Raildudes dad]

The C&M was organized as a and is a for profit company. When's the last time you were inclined to donated to a for profit? They do have some unique problems however

[TrainWatcher]

Some great information on the SMRS.

However. I do feel the curtain is closing in on this former NYC line. Writing has been on the wall for a few years. Lack of maintenance, 1 attempted takeover and 1 successful management/organizational change (the ADBF fiasco, and one coming from inside the group recently), and also word coming from a few solid sources that good old #20 might need to leave Shepard, due to issues with their organization, in the near future. Honestly, I just think it's time. I feel there should be a group to form to save the AA 20 and 21 and maybe WM 75 and the cabs. Atleast give those rare RS-2's and the few others items a good home. Close the doors with dignity, IMHO.

[MQT1223]

Some great information on the SMRS.

However. I do feel the curtain is closing in on this former NYC line. Writing has been on the wall for a few years. Lack of maintenance, 1 attempted takeover and 1 successful management/organizational change (the ADBF fiasco, and one coming from inside the group recently), and also word coming from a few solid sources that good old #20 might need to leave Shepard, due to issues with their organization, in the near future. Honestly, I just think it's time. I feel there should be a group to form to save the AA 20 and 21 and maybe WM 75 and the cabs. Atleast give those rare RS-2's and the few others items a good home. Close the doors with dignity, IMHO.

Give that interurban car to IRM. Can't remember the heritage but I want to say its a South Shore car or a Michigan Car.

[ns8401]

Some great information on the SMRS.

However. I do feel the curtain is closing in on this former NYC line. Writing has been on the wall for a few years. Lack of maintenance, 1 attempted takeover and 1 successful management/organizational change (the ADBF fiasco, and one coming from inside the group recently), and also word coming from a few solid sources that good old #20 might need to leave Shepard, due to issues with their organization, in the near future. Honestly, I just think it's time. I feel there should be a group to form to save the AA 20 and 21 and maybe WM 75 and the cabs. Atleast give those rare RS-2's and the few others items a good home. Close the doors with dignity, IMHO.

20 and 21 are RS-1's not 2's. The RS2's were 300 and 301, they are both gone and I don't think either survived. One was fire damaged and scrapped, the other was sent up to the museum in Green Bay for it's trucks. A shame since they were both Green Bay and Western units.