Crestline

[bdconrail29]

I have been listening to the scanner and railfanning the Big Four and old Fort Wayne Line in and around Crestline lately. The Big Four is really down. From what I can gather, only 2 freights go east and one west. Q366 goes east around 4-6 pm, Q364 usually early morning, and Q377 gosh, anywhere from 2pm to 10 pm. Vans I've noticed Q123 (9am-noon), Q122 (8-10am), and Q108 (12-3 pm). I don't think Q122 runs Sunday. I've caught Q105 on Sundays only it seems, evening. Q111 seems to run daily, usually after midnight. There are some multilevel trains as well. Q268 is almost daily, running from 9-midnight. Q226 is early morning. Q292 runs occasionally, usually late in the late. Westbound, Q227 is the most regular, with Q259 and Q279 hit and miss. Very rarely, ore and empty ore, K162 and K161 have run. And as always, the K516 eastbound and westbound pair. These are not regular, however. The total schedule on the Big Four is not what is was even 3-4 years ago, especially with the Wheelings gone!

Sadly, NS only runs 2 each way/day. Until recently, it was 1 each way. 15V runs anywhere from 7am-9am, with newly routed #169 from noon-3 pm. Back the other way, #170 is 6-9 pm, with 12V a little later than that. NS does run coal and coke, #422/#423 being the load and empty coker, and #615 and #614 being the empty coal/loaded coal pair, although rare. CSX runs a local to Mansfield and back, C935/C930, depending on the day. I remember in 2001 when NS on this line was running 13V, 21A, C37 westbound, #179, 12V, 20A (and before that 20T), C37 eastbound, and #180, all daily. This didn't include coal and empty coal. Then I remember when 13V and 14V were cut away. The vans went away in early '03, with #179 and #180. What a shame that line is today. Remember when Conrail ran southwestern traffic over the long connection?

One other interesting operation in Cresline is the grainers from the CF&E. Grain can come loaded into Crestline from Lima, or depart empty to Lima. Typically the empties are 130 cars westbound, with loads coming in at 65 cars. Additionally, grain loads depart Crestline out onto the Big 4, going southward to Columbus via the Burt Line and vice versa. A local also leaves Crestline yard and goes west to Martel, and east up the Big Four to Wellington. C730 comes to mind as the symbol.

Ah well, it's not what it used to be. If I forgot anything or was wrong on anything, please let me know. Thanks.

Brett

[cr7535]

For CSX here's what runs through Crestline:

Q105 on Sunday evening only (Boston to St. Louis in lieu of Q115)
Q108 Tuesday- Sunday early afternoon
Q111 Early morning Wednesday- Sunday (Cleveland to St. Louis with connections from Q115 and Q169)
Q122 Tuesday- Saturday late morning
Q123 Tuesday- Sunday mornings
Q226, Q268, Q299 are profiled to run daily
Q227, 279 and 292 run almost every day.
There are often S/X268 and S/X226 trains as well.
Q364, 366 and 377 run daily.
K162 & K163 ore trains run as required, as do the K516 (wb) and K518 (eb) slab trains
There's also grain trains occasionally, especially those coming off the CF&E.

As you said, not what it used to be, but on the good side, the trains have been getting bigger overall.
The regular local was taken off at Crestline (C730) and is now called as required.

[bdconrail29]

Thanks for the information. I didn't realize that some of those trains were daily. Between 2:30pm and 5:00pm there were 7 CSX and 1 NS on the scanner! 4 of the CSX's were westbounds, I heard Q377 and Q227, but did not hear the others. Anyways, I did hear a few of the grainer symbols out west of Crest, and were symbolled GRHA, GRLI, or GRCR, I'm assuming for Hamlet, Lima, and Crestline respectively? On the NS end, I heard the local C27 at Mansfield, and it seems one other local, like C48 or something? Anyways, I'm trying to figure out the total operations around the area. Thanks.

Brett

[Mr. Tops]

Thanks for the information. I didn't realize that some of those trains were daily. Between 2:30pm and 5:00pm there were 7 CSX and 1 NS on the scanner! 4 of the CSX's were westbounds, I heard Q377 and Q227, but did not hear the others. Anyways, I did hear a few of the grainer symbols out west of Crest, and were symbolled GRHA, GRLI, or GRCR, I'm assuming for Hamlet, Lima, and Crestline respectively? On the NS end, I heard the local C27 at Mansfield, and it seems one other local, like C48 or something? Anyways, I'm trying to figure out the total operations around the area. Thanks.

Brett

There's also grain trains to/from Bunge in Decatur, IN

[redside20]

well..at least its better than running nothing at all. btw..where is this 170 terminating at and where does 169 originate at? They run down by me

[bdconrail29]

Regarding 169 and 170, I hear from a good buddy of mine, John Lyon, that these run the old route of the original 179/180 in early NS years on the Fort Wayne Line. Meaning, 169 would originate at Conway and go towards the Cincinnati side, probably destinating at Chattanooga? 170 would just be the reverse. The freight looks "southerny" such as that it might go beyond Cincinnati. There may be someone who knows exactly for sure. Thanks for the discussion.

[lakeshoredave]

crestline was such a huge spot before conrail showed up. then it lost the terminal, etc after cr came along, but there still were a good amount of trains, but once the 1999 breakup of conrail happened, it made crestline a shadow of its former past. its unreal how much ohio has changed since that breakup.

[MSchwiebert]

Crestline is a victim of merger related traffic pattern changes than anything. In Conrail days Indy-Pittsburgh was a good lane for Conrail, today though Indy is CSX country and business to Pittsburgh is going to go to Greenwich and turn, or continue on to Cleveland and Selkirk for classification to go on to eastern destinations. Not to mention that CSX prefers the Chicago gateway, NOUS meanwhile has it's own route to KC that they're going to use instead.
As for the CR split changing things - it's nothing compared to what the creation of the Conrail or it's "route rationalzations" in the 1980's'did!

[bdconrail29]

I agree with you. It is difficult anymore to find a true Conrail conversion symbol frieght to an NS or CSX. The car routings have changed so much. It is hard to fathom where all that southwestern traffic went, such as on PICO, PIIN, PIHO, PISW, and PIIC. A lot of those cars have to go via Bellevue now. I guess 35N/34N would be pretty similar to the PISW type routing. But a lot of those trains would now be split at Bellevue, such as coming in on 15K and 11V and then reclassified. I do miss Mail-4 and Mail-44 too. I suppose NS's 21T and 20T run those same/similar routings. Times have changed, but I'll tell you what, train for train, a lot of locations have suffered, but look at the locations that have gained so much traffic. We wouldn't have the Fostoria or Attica Jct or Greenwich we have today without the merger. And NS has really "matched" the lost traffic at locations such as Oak Harbor and Vermilion. My logs from the mid-90's have no more trains from 7am-5pm at those locations that they do now. It's interesting.

Brett

[lakeshoredave]

excellent insight for sure. you guys are onto some good points. obviously these jcts have become alot busier since the cr breakup. the b&o and the nyc routes across northern ohio were the biggest winners traffic wise. the good thing about that is that the nyc route is scenic and has some good hotspots. the b&o has an important terminal and several diamonds. it worked out very well in my mind for us railfans.

[MSchwiebert]

From an industry perspective it's worked out well too. There's now two "high capacity" east-west routes across northern Ohio (CSX's former B&O/NYC combo and NS's former NYC/PRR route) and the former NKP is just slightly behind. In some respects it's unfortunate that the PRR did not get any attention as anticipated - but it's still intact (fortunately Triple Crown stepped in in the 1990's or this would not be the case) and ready to be called upon should need arise. IMO neither the Heartland Corridor nor the National Gateway would have come to pass if the split would not have occured either.

[GTWTD3]

You say CSX's traffic is down, from how the second trick IE guy treats NS trains, I figured that there were thousands of trains. He's held my traffic out upwards of 2 hours.

The wheeling trains are not gone. Lately 430/430 have been running once a week. Didn't run one yesterday, which was surprising.

Your trains for NS didn't mention 67M, which runs 3 times a week with coils out of Mansfield. ALthough power and manpower issues lately have delayed that train, as well as the rest of the regulars.

C935 hasn't run in quite some time, other than to switch the elevator in Crestline.. That is just stone traffic that comes from the Spore Industrial to Wooster. Rumor is it will restart sometime in the spring. Stone traffic is pretty much non existent right now. Used to have twice weekly stone trains to Lordstown, once a week to Alliance, and a couple times a week we'd see that C935. Haven't moved a stone train since early last summer, that I can recall.

Your times for the trains are a little off. 169 is due out of Conway at 4pm, which puts it out of Mansfield in the 9 to 10pm department. 170 is due into Mansfield mid day, but has been running days late. 12V is due into Mansfield as 169 is departing. The coal trains, we don't run no steenking coal trains through Mansfield. Rarely, very very rarely, they will divert a loaded train through Mansfield if the Ohio Central has capacity issues on the normal routing via OHCR Columbus to Mingo. But it's a problem because the hill at Wooster requires more power than is typically assigned to those trains. For a while we were seeing 897 empty trains, but those seem to have dissapeared. It's a rarity to see any coal traffic through Mansfield anymore. As for the symbol you heard around Mansfield, it was probably the C3A.

The CFE grain trains can also be symbolled LIPG, LIEX, LICL, etc . All depends on their crew requirements. The loads are almost always 90 cars anymore, the empties have run as big as 150 cars. And of course, the traffic all seems to show upat the sime time. Makes dispatching hard, especially with the siding at Crestline almost always blocked. I like to get trains through Crestline and park them on the siding for meets, especially with how this second trick guy has been.

[bdconrail29]

Thanks for the info.

Is #422 a coke train then, or some other commodity? I've caught the empty, #423 several times as well. Thanks.

Brett

[GTWTD3]

422 = coke

[ConrailForever]

169 and 170, as far as I've been told from an NS employee who just had the 169, originate and terminate in Bellevue/Conway. The trains take the Sandusky District between Bucyrus and Bellevue, and the Ft. Wayne Line from Bucyrus to Conway.

[GTWTD3]

169 and 170, as far as I've been told from an NS employee who just had the 169, originate and terminate in Bellevue/Conway. The trains take the Sandusky District between Bucyrus and Bellevue, and the Ft. Wayne Line from Bucyrus to Conway.

Negative. 169/170 are Conway to Chattanooga, TN. Those trains NEVER took that routing to Bellevue. Only thing that does is 12V/15V. Perhaps he had his symbols confused.

[redside20]

169 and 170, as far as I've been told from an NS employee who just had the 169, originate and terminate in Bellevue/Conway. The trains take the Sandusky District between Bucyrus and Bellevue, and the Ft. Wayne Line from Bucyrus to Conway.

Negative. 169/170 are Conway to Chattanooga, TN. Those trains NEVER took that routing to Bellevue. Only thing that does is 12V/15V. Perhaps he had his symbols confused.

GTWTD3 is correct, at one time there were actually two pairs of Bellevue-Conway freights, the 14K and 15k and i have no idea if these still operate. The 10E used to terminate there but got cut back to Bellevue and there is an 11V that originates at Enola Yd and terminates in Bellevue. A couple of months ago i thought i heard a 13N in Bellevue yard but unlike its original predecessor which ran from Delaware to Chicago but got cut back to Bellevue.

[GTWTD3]

14K/15K still run daily Conway to Bellevue.

[bdconrail29]

2 things: Am I to understand then, that 12V and 15V originate/terminate at Bellevue? And secondly, a few posts up, are you saying 10E does NOT run east of Bellevue?

Thanks,

Brett

[redside20]

2 things: Am I to understand then, that 12V and 15V originate/terminate at Bellevue? And secondly, a few posts up, are you saying 10E does NOT run east of Bellevue?

Thanks,

Brett

Brett

that is an affirmative. 10E was originally NLPI when Conrail ran it by you in Crestline. 10E was cut back to Bellevue when the economy went bad last year along with the abolishment of 10M and 11M. At the end of last year UP and NS teamed up to transport more chemical traffic from the gulf coast along the same route that 10E takes. I have no idea if 10E has been reinstated past Bellevue or not. And i have no idea if this traffic from UP goes to Bellevue or the Water level at Butler.